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Explosive video obtained by The New Yorker depicts extreme violence inside New York City’s Rikers Island jail complex. Surveillance camera footage shows former teenage prisoner, Kalief Browder, being abused on two separate occasions. In one clip from 2012, the teenager is seen inside Rikers’ Central Punitive Segregation Unit, better known as the Bing. As a guard escorts Browder to the showers, Browder appears to speak, and then the guard suddenly violently hurls him to the floor although he’s already handcuffed. In a separate video clip from 2010, Browder is attacked by almost a dozen other teenage inmates after he punches a gang member who spat in his face. The other inmates pile onto Browder and pummel him until guards finally intervene. In an exclusive interview, we are the first to speak about the video with New Yorker staff writer Jennifer Gonnerman, who told Browder’s story in The New Yorker last year, describing how he spent nearly three years at Rikers after arriving there as a 16-year-old high school sophomore following his refusal to plead guilty to a crime he did not commit — stealing a backpack. "Footage [from inside Rikers] like this never, ever comes out," Gonnerman says. "This is what goes on when nobody is looking."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re on the road in Denver, Colorado, but we turn right now to an exclusive interview with New Yorker staff writer Jennifer Gonnerman about explosive video depicting violence inside New York City’s Rikers Island jail. Rare surveillance camera footage obtained by The New Yorker magazine shows a former teenage prisoner, Kalief Browder, being abused on two separate occasions. In one clip from 2012, the teen is seen inside Rikers’ Central Punitive Segregation Unit, better known as the Bing. As a guard escorts Browder to the showers, Browder appears to speak, then the guard suddenly violently hurls him to the floor, although he’s already handcuffed. In a separate video clip from 2010, Kalief Browder is attacked by almost a dozen other teenage prisoners after he punches a gang member who spat in his face. The other prisoners pile onto Browder and pummel him until guards finally intervene.
Reporter Jennifer Gonnerman wrote about Browder for The New Yorker last year and told his story on Democracy Now! in one of our most watched interviews. She described how Browder spent nearly three years at Rikers, arriving there as a 16-year-old high school sophomore, after he refused to plead guilty to a crime he did not commit, he said. The crime? Stealing a backpack. It was May 15, 2010, when Browder was walking home from a party with his friends in the Bronx, and he was stopped by police based on a tip he had robbed someone weeks earlier. He told HuffPost Live what happened next.
KALIEF BROWDER: They had searched me, and the guy actually said—at first he said I robbed him. I didn’t have anything on me. And that’s when—
MARC LAMONT HILL: When you say "nothing," you mean no weapon and none of his property.
KALIEF BROWDER: No weapon, no money, anything he said that I allegedly robbed him for. So the guy actually changed up his story and said that I actually tried to rob him. But then another police officer came, and they said that I robbed him two weeks prior. And then they said, "We’re going to take you to the precinct, and most likely we’re going to let you go home." But then, I never went home.
AMY GOODMAN: Kalief Browder would be imprisoned for the next almost three years, even though he was never convicted of any crime. For nearly 800 days of that time, he was held in solitary confinement. The teenager maintained his innocence, requested a trial, but was only offered a plea deals while the trial was repeatedly delayed. Near the end of his time in jail, the judge offered to sentence him to time served if he entered a guilty plea, and told him he could face 15 years in prison if he was convicted. He refused to accept the deal, maintaining his innocence. He was only released when the case was suddenly dismissed.
New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio has cited Browder’s ordeal as a reason to, quote, "root out unnecessary case delay." In a statement to The New Yorker magazine, the mayor wrote, quote, "Kalief Browder’s tragic story put a human face on Rikers Island’s culture of delay—a culture with profound human and fiscal costs for defendants and our city," he wrote. Mayor de Blasio has recently launched a sweeping new plan to improve conditions at Rikers.
Well, for more, we’re joined by Jennifer Gonnerman, staff writer for The New Yorker.
Jennifer, welcome back to Democracy Now! I’d like to start by first you telling us—setting the scene for us of this explosive video, how rare it is to have video inside Rikers.
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: It’s unbelievably rare, as you know, Amy. I mean, footage like this never, ever comes out. It’s not as if this was shot by some kind of camera crew. This is what goes on when nobody is looking. You know, nobody really knows what goes on in Rikers Island. Nobody really sees it, except for the people who live there and the people who work there. So, having footage like this is invaluable, and it just never, ever gets out like this. It’s highly unusual.
AMY GOODMAN: So, would you narrate—because the video is silent, would you narrate the first video of the guard coming to solitary confinement where this teenager is, Kalief Browder?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: Sure.
AMY GOODMAN: You see him outside of his prison cell, the guard, flexing his muscles. Can you start there and narrate as we show it?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: You know, so the correction officer has come to Kalief Browder’s cell to take him to the shower, which is supposed to be a daily occurrence. And on the way there, he appears to toss him or slam him to the ground—and that’s what’s happening right here in the video—and hold him down. And it’s unclear why exactly that’s happening. There’s no microphones on these cameras. It looks like maybe Kalief said something. It’s uncertain. I asked Kalief, "What happened here? What was going on?" And he told me that a week or two prior they had had some sort of verbal dispute, an argument, and he felt like this was probably just the way the officer was dealing with it. But it came out of nowhere to Kalief.
And, you know, I met Kalief about a year ago, and he told me about this incident at that time. He told me the exact date that it occurred. And he said, "You need to see the video." And I didn’t think, you know, of course, I was ever going to see the video. But the fact that he was so adamant—and it wasn’t as if he wanted me to see it because it was the worst thing that happened to him on Rikers Island, because it certainly wasn’t. It’s just that he knew it had happened in full view of the cameras. And there was something about that that was so blatant and so egregious that he just was sort of very eager for people to know what had happened and for people to see it. And it just struck me. Here he was in solitary confinement, and yet he remembered, two years later, the exact date that this incident had occurred.
And actually, Amy, the most disturbing thing about this video, you can’t even see in the video, but you alluded to it in the introduction, which is the fact that when this happens, Kalief has now been in jail for 862 days without being convicted of a crime. So he’s been trapped on Rikers Island for that long by the time this happens, and he’s been about nine months in solitary confinement at this point, barely ever leaving his cell. This is one of the few times he ever leaves the cell, only to go to the court or to recreation or to a shower.
AMY GOODMAN: And how old was he at the time?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: In this video, he’s 19 years old. He was arrested at 16. And it’s just—this video is—
AMY GOODMAN: Why was he never tried—
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: You know, that’s something—
AMY GOODMAN: —over that three-year period?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: Right. You know, that’s something that I wrote about at length in The New Yorker last fall, and it has to do with a congestion in the courts, particularly in the Bronx. He was arrested in the Bronx. If you’re arrested there, the courts are slower than in the other boroughs. But the case went on and on. And the real reason it dragged on for three years, which is pretty unusual, but certainly not the only time this happens in New York City, is because he insisted on a trial. Just like you talked about in the introduction, he said he [was innocent]. He was not going to plead guilty to something that he believed he had not done. He wanted his trial. And he didn’t think it was going to take three years to get a trial; he just wanted his day in court. And it never came. They kept doing all these delays, over and over again.
You know, my feeling is that the court system, which decides how long he’s going to be locked up before trial, has really no idea what’s happening in Rikers Island. So there’s these two systems that are highly dysfunctional—the jail system and the court system. And here’s Kalief bouncing between the two, each dysfunction exacerbating the—each system just exacerbating the dysfunction of the other system. You know, it’s completely crazy.
AMY GOODMAN: Jennifer, you just described the video that we saw. And by the way, how did you get this video?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: You know, I can’t really get into how I got it, except just to say that it is city footage. The city has this footage. They shot it with surveillance cameras in their own facilities.
AMY GOODMAN: Have these three—was it three guards, the first one and then the other two that joined in? Have they been disciplined?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: I don’t know. The city has had this footage for more than a day now, but I don’t know if there’s been any discipline. I know they said they’re looking into it, into the incidents.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, presumably, they’ve always had it, right? It’s a prison video.
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: Well, they have, of course, of course. But, you know, having it and watching it and scrutinizing it isn’t, you know, always the same.
AMY GOODMAN: Right. Let’s go to the second video, the video that was two years earlier in 2010. Describe it for us as we play it. Again, it is silent.
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: You know, in this video—here we go. You started the video where Kalief—you can’t see Kalief in the screen here, because he’s being sort of pummeled, kicked and beaten by, I don’t know, eight or 10 different inmates. But this is a—he’s in a housing unit in the adolescent jail on Rikers Island. He’s been locked up for six months. He’s 17 years old in this video. The housing unit is run by a gang. He, in an earlier incident, tells me that he was spit in the face. A gang leader spit in his face. He was so angry about this that he later punched the gang leader, knowing full well what would happen, and this is exactly what happened. The entire housing unit starts to jump on him.
So, right now in the video, the officers have pulled most of the teenagers off of Kalief, though a lot of the teenagers are trying to break free of the guards and get some extra punches in, as you’re seeing right there. The officers are pulling them back, pulling them back, trying to protect Kalief as best they can, though they’re completely outmatched. And there, you see, they’ve put him in a sort of safe room, and yet the other inmates have burst in and now are pummeling and punching him and beating him up once again. So it’s sort of like one against 10, or one against eight, and the officers are clearly trying to do the best they can, I think, but there’s not much they can do when they’re so outmatched.
In this part of the video, I think you can see an officer has a canister of pepper spray, and he’s trying to get the other inmates off of Kalief. But it’s essentially a very protracted beatdown of one inmate. And here’s Kalief alone, you know, looking as one would have after [inaudible]—
AMY GOODMAN: Jennifer, it’s—
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: —seriously attacked.
AMY GOODMAN: It is astounding that Kalief Browder, as a 16-year-old, went through this for three years. This is Kalief speaking on HuffPost Live’s Marc Lamont Hill that while he was in—he was telling him, while he was in solitary confinement at Rikers, the guards often refused to give him his meals.
KALIEF BROWDER: If you say anything that could tick them off any type of way, some of them, which is a lot of them, what they do is they starve you. They won’t feed you. And it’s already hard in there, because if you get the three trays that you get every day, you’re still hungry, because I guess that’s part of the punishment. So, if they starve you one tray, that could really make an impact on you. And—
MARC LAMONT HILL: How much were you starved?
KALIEF BROWDER: I was starved a lot. I can’t even—I can’t even count.
AMY GOODMAN: Kalief Browder went on to say he was once starved four times in a row—no breakfast, lunch, dinner or breakfast again. As we begin to wrap up, Jennifer, can you talk about how he is doing today?
JENNIFER GONNERMAN: You know, he’s out. He’s been out for two years now. And I guess he’s doing as well as one could possibly do, considering what he’s been through. But, you know, the psychological damage, the emotional damage—I wrote about it last year, last fall, in The New Yorker—continues to this day, continues after the story comes out, of course, and it goes on and on. And, you know, it’s unclear at this point what it’s going to mean down the road. But, you know, he’s doing OK. He’s in college. He’s trying to gain back the education that he missed, because he missed two years of high school while he was locked up on Rikers Island.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you for being with us, staff writer for The New Yorker. We will link to all of your stories at The New Yorker magazine.
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. When we come back, today is the hundredth anniversary of the Armenian genocide.
This week marks the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide. On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic, premeditated genocide against the Armenian people — an unarmed Christian minority living under Turkish rule. An estimated 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Today, the Turkish government continues to deny this genocide, and since becoming president, President Obama has avoided using the term "genocide" to describe it. We’re joined by Peter Balakian, professor of humanities at Colgate University and author of "The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America’s Response"; Anahid Katchian, whose father was a survivor of the 1915 Armenian genocide; and Simon Maghakyan, an activist with Armenians of Colorado. We also play a recording of Armenian broadcaster and writer David Barsamian’s mother recalling her experience during the Armenian genocide as a young girl. Araxie Barsamian survived, but her parents and brothers did not.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. We’re on the road in Denver, Colorado. This week marks the hundredth anniversary of the Armenian genocide. On April 24, 1915, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic, premeditated genocide of the Armenian people, an unarmed Christian minority living under Turkish rule. An estimated 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. An ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
Today, the Turkish government continues to deny the genocide. Books about the slaughter are banned in Turkey, and its government lobbies heavily in the United States, as well, against congressional resolutions on genocide.
In a minute, we’ll be joined by three guests, but I first want to turn to a recording of Armenian broadcaster and writer David Barsamian’s mother recalling her experience during the Armenian genocide as a young girl. Araxie Barsamian survived, but her parents and brothers did not. In 1986, she told her story to a history class at the University of Denver. She’s introduced by the well-known broadcaster of Alternative Radio, her son, David Barsamian.
DAVID BARSAMIAN: Now you will hear eyewitness testimony from Araxie Barsamian, my mother. She survived the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. Her parents, four brothers and members of her extended family were not so fortunate.
Araxie was born in the village of Dubne, north of the historic Armenian city of Dikranagerd, now called Diyarbakir. Her parents were Giragos and Mariam Giragosian. Her younger brothers were Sarkis, Mardiros, Hovsep and Tavit. Unaware of the looming calamity about to envelop her, she remembers an omen. Early in 1915, the village was covered with grasshoppers. Elders said it was a bad sign. A few months later, the wheat was ripe and about to be harvested, when the end came. The Turks came to the village, took all the men and young boys, marched them outside of town and shot them. The remaining women and children were told to assemble at the church. They were going to be "resettled"—that was the euphemism for deportation—to the uninhabitable desert wastes hundreds of miles to the south. They were to walk to their new homes. Promises that they would be protected en route were quickly broken. The defenseless caravans were waylaid and attacked throughout the deportation march. Girls were kidnapped and raped. Starvation and disease took care of many of those the Turks did not kill.
Araxie walked as far as the city of Urfa, where she was separated from her mother, brothers and other relatives. She eventually found her way into an orphanage in Aleppo in northern Syria. In August 1921, she married my father, Bedros Barsamian, in Beirut. Three months later, they were living in a tenement walk-up on Horatio Street in New York’s West Village. The following year, at 17, she had the first of her four children.
In 1986, just a few months before her death, Araxie spoke to a history class at the University of Colorado at Denver. I was there with her. She begins by describing what happened to her father.
ARAXIE BARSAMIAN: When we left, my family was 25 in the family. They took all the men folks. They ask my father, "Where is your ammunition?" He says, "I sold it." So, he says, "Go get it." So when he went in [inaudible] town to get it, they beat him, and they took him, all his clothes. And when he came back—this is my mother tells me the story. When he came back, their body—he went in jail. They cut his arms. "Where’s the ammunition?" He says, "I haven’t got it. They didn’t give me." So he die in jail.
And all the mens, they took all the mens in the field. They tied their hands, and they shooted, killed them, every one of them. I remember they collect the only 15-years-old boys, left just like this. They were sitting, and their hands are tied back. And they took in a field. They shoot them, too. Nothing left, only women and small children.
We deported in some city. There, food, nothing to eat. They took everything from us. They say, they put in a church, "When you come back, we’ll give you back," which is not true. So we went to some city. My aunt gave birth. They left—she left her baby over there. And then we walk, walk, walk, so many, no water. I remember my mother used to—had handkerchief and, excuse me, horse urine, and wipe our mouth. We were so dry. Just think that. I forgot lots things. If I remember things, day and night I tell, not finish.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Araxie Barsamian, mother of the well-known radio broadcaster and writer, David Barsamian. She’s a survivor of the Armenian genocide. David lives in Boulder, Colorado, where he hosts Alternative Radio. But he’s overseas today commemorating the hundredth anniversary.
For more, we’re joined by three guests. Here in Denver, Anahid Katchian’s father was a survivor of the 1915 Armenian genocide. She has interviewed 44 survivors here in the United States. And Simon Maghakyan is a lecturer in political science at the University of Colorado and activist with Armenians of Colorado. In New York, Peter Balakian joins us, professor of humanities at Colgate University, author of The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America’s Response. His new books include the poetry collection, Ozone Journal, about trauma, memory and art, and Vise and Shadow, a collection of profiles of Armenian poets and artists who were killed or affected by the genocide. His op-ed in the Los Angeles Times is headlined "On Armenian genocide, go ahead and offend Turkey."
We welcome you all to Democracy Now! Peter, I want to begin with you. Why is the Armenian genocide so difficult for many in the United States to get accurate information on?
PETER BALAKIAN: Well, I really think there’s been an amazing kind of development of scholarship over the last 25 years. I think right now the bibliography on the Armenian genocide is impressive, and there are amazing works of scholarship from scholars around the world, from different archives and different cultures. So, I do think there’s been an enormous recovery of this history, which had been more obscured, I suppose, more lost, in the 1970s and ’80s. But now I think that the frequency of teaching the Armenian genocide in the curriculum around the country, both in high school and at the university level, is on its way to becoming almost standard in certain kinds of courses, and especially in courses that deal with the World War I era or that deal in genocide and human rights studies and issues.
AMY GOODMAN: What does the Turkish government say today?
PETER BALAKIAN: Well, you know, the Turkish government’s denialism has been a consistent policy from really the time of the event. I mean, even at the time, the minister of the interior, Talaat, was engaged in wholesale denial of the mass killings as they were happening on the spot. He was trying to bury skeletons and bones from European inspectors. And Turkey has persisted in a deeply misguided kind of nationalist project, in which they’re incapable of dealing with this enormous crime that’s lodged at the very cornerstone of their modern history. They continue to have a state-educated—a state-mandated education system, in which there is no critical analysis allowed or permitted in the curriculum. And for the most part, the genocide of the Armenians is ignored, or it is given two or three sentences in which the Armenians are vilified and blamed for their own fate. I do think that behind this—
AMY GOODMAN: And how does Turkey—Peter, how does Turkey affect academia, people learning this, in the United States?
PETER BALAKIAN: Well, again, here, I’m happy to say we have seen an amazing shift. Twenty, 25 years ago, there was still what I would call a pernicious kind of Turkish nationalism that infested the teaching of Middle Eastern studies. And Ottoman studies was really under the tight control of Ankara. That has passed. There’s a new generation of young, talented Ottoman scholars, Middle East scholars, and, of course, many, many other scholars in different fields. But the breakthrough in the Ottoman studies world has been really noticeable. So I think what was once a more pernicious situation is less so. Nevertheless, there are still official kind of state-involved Turkish deniers out there, and they exist in a few pockets around the nation. And I think, slowly, that will erode, because they remain on the wrong side of truth, critical inquiry and history.
AMY GOODMAN: Simon Maghakyan, talk about what’s happening here in Denver at the State Capitol.
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: This afternoon, Governor Hickenlooper and the Armenian community will unveil an Armenian genocide monument on State Capitol grounds in memory of all crimes against humanity.
AMY GOODMAN: How did this happen?
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: It started three years ago when the Armenian community was offered a donation by a man named Alexander Ter-Hovakimyan from Armenia. And we already had a garden installed by Armenians of Colorado in 1982, so building on that project, we were able to work with the state, get the General Assembly’s and the governor’s support, to bring this beautiful monument to Colorado.
AMY GOODMAN: What does it look like?
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: It’s a khachkar. It’s intricately carved, has different symbols on it of different faiths. It’s actually a replica of a monument that was destroyed only 10 years ago.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about your own family history?
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: My family is from Urfa. That’s where Araxie Barsamian was taken where they were taken on the march. It’s a magical place, the homeland of Abraham and my ancestors, Hagop and Khatun [phon.]. Hagop was a soldier in the Ottoman army. And when he returned home in 1918, no one welcomed him or thanked him for his service. He had no idea that the Armenian genocide had been going on. And his entire family had been either wiped out or driven out, except for his would-be wife, Khatun, who was hiding and living secretly with a kind Turkish widow. And my would-be great-grandmother was rescued, and the two met in Aleppo years later. And that’s where my grandfather and his three brothers were born.
AMY GOODMAN: Anahid Katchian, can you talk about your family’s history, particularly your father and what happened to him?
ANAHID KATCHIAN: My father, Azad Katchian, was six at the time of the genocide, at the beginning. They lived in the northern Black Sea coast, sea coast, city of Trabizon. And when they realized they must flee, they went to the port and were told the last boat that allowed Armenians left this morning and would not—they missed the boat by half a day. And from that, they were taken—he was taken with his sister—six years old, four years old—to a place that did take children. We do not know exactly where this place was, but they were left at a place that took children.
And from that place, eventually, he was, with other children his age, put on a march. He was told, "We’re going out on a picnic." They started out, and the march began. He was, as a child, put on the march for several years through the mountains, walking, walking, walking. Like Araxie was saying, the parching—more than hunger was the thirst. The walking, blistering his feet. He had scars to the end of his life on his foot. But he survived. He survived.
He was taken by different Arab families, even Turkish families. And he always recognized that there was help from certain—certain Turks did help him—and then put back on the march, until the end of World War I, when Near East Relief Americans helped him get on his feet, helped him and thousands of other orphans who had survived, but bedraggled, really truly bedraggled. But Americans helped him get back on his feet. He was taken to an orphanage in Beirut, where Dr. Stanley Kerr and his wife Elsa raised him all the way, educating him in Beirut all the way through medical school at the American University of Beirut.
AMY GOODMAN: Peter Balakian, you are a poet as well as an author. I was wondering if you could share a poem about the Armenian genocide?
PETER BALAKIAN: I’m happy to. And in light of the beautiful and moving stories of survivors that you have brought together today, I’d like to read a short poem of mine called "After the Survivors Are Gone."
I tried to imagine the Vilna ghetto,
to see a persimmon tree after the flash at Nagasaki.
Because my own tree had been hacked,
I tried to kiss the lips of Armenia.
At the table and the altar
we said some words written ages ago.
Have we settled for just the wine and bread,
for candles lit and snuffed?
Let us remember how the law has failed us.
Let us remember the child naked,
waiting to be shot on a bright day
with tulips blooming around the ditch.
We shall not forget the earth,
the artifact, the particular song,
the dirt of an idiom—
things that stick in the ear.
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: Beautiful.
AMY GOODMAN: Your thoughts, Simon, when you listen to Peter?
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: Peter so well connects the history of what happened to us to the suffering of many more around the world. And it is very important to understand that the Armenian genocide is what defined the international laws of crimes against humanity and genocide. And it is important to recognize all the atrocities that have been committed by governments against the very people they were supposed to protect.
AMY GOODMAN: The pope’s statement on the Armenian genocide, Anahid, what did that mean to you?
ANAHID KATCHIAN: It was a light. It was a spotlight that was so very, very energizing. My father would have been absolutely enthralled by it. All he wanted was recognition, acknowledgment by the powers that be in Turkey now. And the pope spoke to it. He gave voice to it in a public arena, wide arena.
AMY GOODMAN: What, Simon, do you want Americans and people around the world to understand on this hundredth anniversary of the beginning of the Armenian genocide?
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: I want everyone to understand that the cycle of genocide will continue unless we recognize the injustices of the past. Hitler is famously quoted as saying, "Who, after all, remembers the Armenians?" before he launched the attack on Poland. We have to recognize the history and the trauma that the Armenian people face to this day.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all for being with this. Anahid, will you be also at the State Capitol today?
ANAHID KATCHIAN: Very much so.
AMY GOODMAN: Is there a large Armenian community here in Denver?
SIMON MAGHAKYAN: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all. Peter Balakian in New York, professor of humanities at Colgate University, author of The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America’s Response. Anahid Katchian, thank you for joining us, whose father was a survivor of the 1915 Armenian genocide. She’s interviewed scores of survivors in the United States. And Simon Maghakyan, lecturer in political science at the University of Colorado, activist with Armenians of Colorado.
That does it for our broadcast. Monday through Wednesday, we’ll be broadcasting from The Hague. So do tune in.
A U.S. drone strike in Pakistan has reportedly accidentally killed two hostages who were being held captive by al-Qaeda. The White House says U.S. government contractor Warren Weinstein and Italian aid worker Giovanni Lo Porto were killed in the border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan in January. On Thursday, President Barack Obama took "full responsibility" for the botched operation and described it as a painful loss he profoundly regretted. According to the White House, the operation also reportedly killed an American al-Qaeda leader, Ahmed Farouq. A separate strike apparently killed another American al-Qaeda member, Adam Gadahn. Despite hundreds of hours of surveillance, the White House said it had no reason to believe the U.S. and Italian hostages were being detained in the al-Qaeda compound targeted during the operation. "In neither of the strikes … did the government actually know who it was killing," says Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU. "Yesterday’s disclosures just provide more reasons to question what kinds of regulations the government has governing these strikes." The botched operation comes on the heels of a new report chronicling civilian deaths from U.S. drone strikes in Yemen.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re on the road in Denver, Colorado. President Obama has apologized after the White House revealed a U.S. drone strike killed an American government contractor and an Italian aid worker held hostage by al-Qaeda in January. Despite hundreds of hours of surveillance and near-constant visibility of the al-Qaeda site, officials said they did not know the hostages were there. Officials said the strike also killed an American linked to al-Qaeda, Ahmed Farouq, while another American al-Qaeda member, Adam Gadahn, was killed in a separate strike. Obama apologized to the families of hostages Warren Weinstein and Giovanni Lo Porto.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: I want to express our grief and condolences to the families of two hostages—one American, Dr. Warren Weinstein, and an Italian, Giovanni Lo Porto—who were tragically killed in a U.S. counterterrorism operation. As president and as commander-in-chief, I take full responsibility for all our counterterrorism operations, including the one that inadvertently took the lives of Warren and Giovanni. I profoundly regret what happened. On behalf of the United States government, I offer our deepest apologies to the families.
AMY GOODMAN: The U.S. counterterrorism operation has reportedly accidentally killed two hostages that were being held captive by al-Qaeda—again, U.S. government contractor Warren Weinstein; an Italian, Lo Porto.
We’re joined right now by Jameel Jaffer, who is the deputy legal director of the ACLU.
We welcome you to Democracy Now!, Jameel. Talk about this latest revelation.
JAMEEL JAFFER: Well, you know, I think it provides us with more reasons to question the strength and the reliability of the intelligence that the government is relying on to conduct these drone strikes. You know, in neither of the strikes that the government disclosed yesterday did the government actually know who it was killing. It wasn’t until after—and in one case, until weeks after—the strike that the government actually figured out who had been in the sights of the drone operators. And that, I think, is pretty troubling. You know, we’ve seen over the last few months—over the last couple years, repeated instances in which the government, despite committing itself to applying the most stringent standards, has ended up killing civilians in drone strikes. And it happens over and over and over again. And I think that yesterday’s disclosures just provide more reasons to question what it is, what kinds of regulations the government has governing these strikes.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you explain who these two men are—the American government contractor, Warren Weinstein, and the Italian aid worker, Giovanni Lo Porto?
JAMEEL JAFFER: Right. Well, they were being held hostage, and apparently were held in this al-Qaeda compound. According to the government, the drone operators who were surveilling the compound didn’t realize that the hostages were held there, despite having conducted surveillance over a period of at least more than a week, I think. And it was only after the strike was carried out that—when the government saw that six bodies were being taken out of the compound rather than just the four they expected, that they realized that they had killed two people they hadn’t known were even there. And it was only later that they determined that those two people were the hostages.
You know, it’s obviously a very sad thing. These were entirely innocent people, and nobody is suggesting that the government had any idea they were there, but it does—it does lead one to question again the standards that the government is applying. And I think it leads one to question how much the drone operators actually know before they pull the trigger. And if this were an isolated event—I mean, it’s isolated in the sense that we ended up killing hostages, but it’s not isolated in the sense that we have—there have been many previous strikes in which the drones ended up killing civilians. And that’s something that I think that the country hasn’t really confronted.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you explain also who the American linked to al-Qaeda, Ahmed Farouq, and another American al-Qaeda member, Adam Gadahn, were, killed in a separate strike?
JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah, I mean, I think we—we don’t know a whole lot about them. I mean, these are two Americans who are said to have gone and joined forces with al-Qaeda. Adam Gadahn is somebody who was a spokesperson for that organization. You know, according to the government, neither of these Americans was targeted. And again, it was only after the strikes that the government determined that those Americans were actually there. So, you know, once again, I think that it provides reason to question how much information the drone operators have before they’re actually carrying out these strikes. You know, I guess one other—
AMY GOODMAN: Jameel Jaffer, what are your—go ahead.
JAMEEL JAFFER: Well, I was just going to say that one other thing that’s remarkable about yesterday’s disclosures is the very fact of the disclosures, because normally the government doesn’t disclose information about individual drone strikes, at least not on the record like this. This is a very unusual thing, where the government is actually disclosing information about who was killed and a little bit of information about the operation. You know, with the vast majority of drone strikes, we don’t get that level of transparency. I wish we did. We still don’t know—we don’t have the government’s information, the government’s statistics about civilian casualties, and the government is still withholding even basic information about the legal framework for the program. The Justice Department memos, for example, are still being withheld, with the exception of two memos, that relate to killing U.S. citizens, but there are eight memos that the government is still withholding, despite three or four years of litigation by the ACLU and by The New York Times.
AMY GOODMAN: Has Warren Weinstein’s family spoken out?
JAMEEL JAFFER: You know, I did see one statement by Weinstein’s family. You know, it was a very, very sad statement, obviously. The family is devastated by the news. I think that they were holding out hope that Mr. Weinstein would be rescued. And I think one can very readily understand why the family is so devastated by the disclosures of yesterday.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn back to President Obama with more of his apology when it was revealed that the U.S. had killed these two hostages in the drone strike in Pakistan back in January.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: As soon as we determined the cause of their deaths, I directed that the existence of this operation be declassified and disclosed publicly. I did so because the Weinstein and Lo Porto families deserve to know the truth. And I did so because, even as certain aspects of our national security efforts have to remain secret in order to succeed, the United States is a democracy, committed to openness in good times and in bad.
AMY GOODMAN: Jameel Jaffer, can you respond to President Obama talking about this democracy committed to openness?
JAMEEL JAFFER: Well, I mean, I guess I have mixed feelings about that particular statement. You know, as I said, the president made that statement in the context of disclosing information about a drone strike, or about two drone strikes. And I think the president was right to make those disclosures. On the other hand, it’s very hard to square that statement, that we’re committed to openness, with the government’s record on the drone program more generally. You know, the government doesn’t release information about who it’s targeting. It doesn’t release information about civilian casualties. It doesn’t even release those kinds of statistics long after the strikes. All of that information is kept secret, except in the cases in which intelligence officials make off-the-record or not-for-attribution disclosures to the press.
And as I mentioned, the legal memos, which are really the law of the targeted killing program, are still being withheld from the government. Until very recently, the CIA’s position in court was that the agency couldn’t disclose even whether it was involved in a drone program at all, which is obviously an absurd position, given how much is written about this program in the newspapers. But the administration has been taking this very hardline position with respect to transparency around the drone program, releasing almost no information. The memo that was released last year, the Office of Legal Counsel memo that related to the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki in 2011, that memo was released only after three years of litigation and two appeals courts decisions holding that the government secrecy was unlawful. And even after the disclosure of that memo, the government continues to withhold the other memos that apply to strikes that don’t involve U.S. persons, and obviously those strikes account for the vast majority of drone strikes in Pakistan, in Yemen and in Somalia.
So we really have a program that is cloaked in secrecy, even now. The public is heavily reliant on information released by the government itself, and the government itself quite often cherry-picks information, releasing only the information that casts the program in the most favorable light. So, while I—you know, I suppose, I applaud the president for stating that the government is committed to transparency, I question whether the government’s actions actually reflect that commitment.
AMY GOODMAN: On Thursday, ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl asked White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest about the legal justification for killing an American citizen said to be a member of al-Qaeda.
JONATHAN KARL: Is it legal—under the guidelines that this administration has put in place, is it legal to kill American citizens who do not represent an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States?
PRESS SECRETARY JOSH EARNEST: What is permissible, under international law and in the protocol that the president has established, is for the United States to carry out strikes, to carry out operations against al-Qaeda compounds that we can assess with near certainty are al-Qaeda compounds that are frequented by al-Qaeda leaders. And that is the operation that took place. And that operation did result in the death of al-Qaeda fighters and al-Qaeda leaders who were in this al-Qaeda compound.
JONATHAN KARL: But would it have been illegal for you to intentionally target those two men?
PRESS SECRETARY JOSH EARNEST: Well, there is a separate procedure and protocol for specifically targeting American citizens.
AMY GOODMAN: Jameel Jaffer, can you explain?
JAMEEL JAFFER: Sure. You know, I think there’s a lot of confusion here about what procedures the government is actually applying in what places. The president announced in May of 2013, during a speech at the National Defense University, a series of procedures that the government would comply with when it used lethal force, when it used armed drones to carry out these strikes. And one of the things that the president said was that we would not use lethal force unless there was a near certainty that no civilians would be killed. Now, the understanding was that that standard was going to be phased in and that it would apply outside zones of active hostilities. But there’s a lot of uncertainty about precisely where that standard is being applied.
And even where it’s clear that that standard is the one that’s supposed to be governing the government’s actions—for example, in Yemen—we see repeatedly these instances in which U.S. drones end up killing civilians. And just last week or the week before, the Open Society Justice Initiative released a report that discusses nine drone strikes, or nine incidents in Yemen, in which drones ended up killing civilians. And some of those incidents post-dated the president’s May 2013 speech. And so, even where it’s clear that that near-certainty standard is the one that the government says is applying, we see these repeated instances in which civilians are being killed.
So it’s hard to understand. You know, I think there’s a question for us: Is the government really applying that standard in those places? And if it is, then is the government using these words in ways that are different from the ways we ordinarily use them? Because "near certainty" is hard to reconcile with the number of civilian deaths that are being reported.
The Washington Post reports the Pentagon plans to increase its efforts to resettle dozens of detainees from the U.S. military prison at Guantánamo in the coming months before Congress can block future transfers and derail President Obama’s plan to shutter the U.S. military prison. As a first step, officials plan to send up to 10 prisoners overseas, possibly in June. In all, the Pentagon hopes that 57 inmates who are approved for transfer will be resettled by the end of 2015. We get reaction from Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, who says the new legislation would make it nearly impossible to close the facility.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, very quickly, Jameel Jaffer, this front-page Washington Post report that, lower down in the piece, mentions that President Obama plans to close Guantánamo, any word on this?
JAMEEL JAFFER: Well, this is very important, because next week the House Armed Services Committee is going to vote on new restrictions on transferring prisoners out of Guantánamo. And if that—if Congress does impose these restrictions—I think what’s being proposed right now is a two-year ban on any transfer from Guantánamo—it’s going to make it literally impossible to close that prison. So it’s very important that the president do everything that he can to prevent those restrictions from becoming law. And it’s also important that anyone who can call their member of Congress do so and make clear that it’s important that legislators vote against those proposed transfer bans. It really would make it very, very difficult to close the prison and to transfer out people who have been cleared for release now for many, many years. At least—about half the people who are still held at Guantánamo have been cleared for release, meaning that six different government agencies have agreed that they don’t belong at Guantánamo. And those are the people whom the government couldn’t transfer if Congress impose these restrictions.
AMY GOODMAN: Jameel Jaffer, I want to thank you for being with us, deputy legal director of the ACLU.
JAMEEL JAFFER: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: When we come back, explosive new video showing extreme violence against a teenage prisoner at Rikers Island in New York. Stay with us.
Headlines:
Obama Apologizes After U.S. Drone Strike Kills 2 Hostages
President Obama has apologized after the White House revealed a U.S. drone strike in Pakistan killed an American government contractor and an Italian aid worker held hostage by al-Qaeda in January. Despite hundreds of hours of surveillance and near-constant visibility of the al-Qaeda site, officials said they did not know the hostages were there. Officials said the strike also killed an American linked to al-Qaeda, Ahmed Farouq, while another American, al-Qaeda member Adam Gadahn, was killed in a separate strike. Obama apologized to the families of hostages Warren Weinstein and Giovanni Lo Porto.
President Obama: "As president and as commander-in-chief, I take full responsibility for all our counterterrorism operations, including the one that inadvertently took the lives of Warren and Giovanni. I profoundly regret what happened. On behalf of the United States government, I offer our deepest apologies to the families."
We’ll have more on the drone strike later in the broadcast.
Amnesty: European Plan on Migration "Woefully Inadequate"
European leaders have vowed to triple spending on border protection as part of a plan to address a migrant crisis, after up to 900 people died when their ship capsized in the Mediterranean. Amnesty International called the plan "woefully inadequate and shameful," noting the border program "patrol[s] within 30 miles of Italian and Maltese coasts, far from where most deaths occur."
Senate Confirms Lynch as Attorney General After Historic Delay
The U.S. Senate has confirmed Loretta Lynch as the first African-American woman attorney general. Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy praised her confirmation but rued how long it took.
Sen. Patrick Leahy: "She becomes the first out of 82 attorneys general in our nation’s history to face a filibuster, has had to wait longer than any other. She is an historic nominee. On one hand, she is a historic nominee for the right reasons — first African-American woman, highly, highly qualified — everybody agrees with that. But what a shame that we add this second part of history to have her be the first out of 82 filibustered, to be held to this very disturbing double standard."
Loretta Lynch presided over controversial terrorism cases as the top federal prosecutor in Brooklyn, New York. She supports bulk NSA surveillance and disagrees with President Obama’s stance marijuana may not be more dangerous than alcohol.
Comcast Drops Bid to Merge with Time Warner Cable
Comcast has reportedly dropped its bid to acquire Time Warner Cable in a deal that would have merged the country’s two largest cable providers. The move follows reports of opposition from the Justice Departement and Federal Communications Commission over the merger, which would have left a single company in control of 57 percent of the broadband Internet market.
Maryland: Troopers Deployed amid Protests over Freddie Gray’s Death
In Maryland, Governor Larry Hogan has deployed state troopers to Baltimore amid days of protests over the death of Freddie Gray. Gray died Sunday of spinal injuries a week after an arrest during which a witness said police bent him like a pretzel. Police have now confirmed Gray was not wearing a seat belt in a police van, where he was handcuffed and in leg irons. Baltimore resident Randy Wellington attended Thursday’s protest.
Randy Wellington: "I’m here to fight for the justice of Freddie Gray and all those that’s been persecuted by the Baltimore City Police Department, as well as police departments all around this world. We’re getting sick and tired of being persecuted for no apparent reason, and I think it should stop."
Michael Brown’s Family Sues Ferguson for Wrongful Death
The family of Michael Brown has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the city of Ferguson, Missouri, over the fatal shooting of their 18-year-old son by police officer Darren Wilson. While Wilson avoided both criminal and federal civil rights charges over the shooting, Brown family attorney Anthony Gray said the lawsuit could present new evidence.
Anthony Gray: "The evidence has not changed, but the presentation of that evidence will. We expect to put on evidence that you’ve never heard about before and never seen."
Petraeus Sentenced to Probation for Leaking Secret Information
Former CIA director and retired U.S. Army General David Petraeus has been sentenced to two years’ probation and a $100,000 fine after pleading guilty to leaking highly classified information to his biographer and lover Paula Broadwell. Petraeus will avoid jail time, unlike fellow leakers like Chelsea Manning and John Kiriakou. The fine is reportedly less than he gets for a single speaking appearance.
Deutsche Bank to Pay $2.5 Billion in Rate-Rigging Case
Deutsche Bank has become the latest financial firm to settle accusations it rigged a key global interest rate used to set the value of trillions of dollars in investments. The bank agreed to pay $2.5 billion under the settlement with U.S. and British regulators, and accept a criminal guilty plea for a British subsidiary. No one at the bank has been charged with a crime.
India: Funeral Held for Farmer Who Killed Himself at Rally
In India, a funeral has been held for a farmer who hanged himself from a tree at a protest in the capital New Delhi. Gajendra Singh left a note saying he had suffered crop losses as a result of heavy rains. His death came in the midst of a political rally opposing Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s bill to ease corporate land takeovers. More than 300,000 Indian farmers have killed themselves amid debts and crop failures since 1995.
Peru: Police Fire on Copper Mine Protesters, Killing 1
In Peru, a farmer has been shot dead after police opened fire on protesters taking part in a month-long campaign against a Mexican-owned copper mine project supported by the Peruvian government. Protesters say the Tia Maria mine in the southern region of Arequipa would contaminate water and hurt farming. President Ollanta Humala has sent thousands of police to quell the protests.
3 More Women Accuse Bill Cosby of Sexual Assault
In the United States, three more women have publicly accused comedian Bill Cosby of drugging and sexually assaulting them. In total, about 40 women have come forward with allegations against Cosby dating back decades.
Columbia Students Launch Sit-In for Private Prison Divestment
Students at Columbia University in New York City are launching a sit-in today to call for the university to divest its shares from private prisons. The students plan to sit in outside the office of President Lee Bollinger to call for divestment from the firms Corrections Corporation of America and G4S.
Mumia Abu-Jamal Supporters Mark Birthday, Demand Medical Care
Supporters of imprisoned journalist and Black Panther Mumia Abu-Jamal marked his 61st birthday Thursday. They have continued to call for prison authorities in Pennsylvania to let Abu-Jamal access outside medical care as he remains seriously ill from eczema and diabetes.
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