Democracy Now! Daily Digest - A Daily Independent Global News
Hour with Amy Goodman & Juan González for Tuesday, 28 January 2014
STORIES:
"We Shall Overcome": Remembering Folk Icon, Activist
Pete Seeger in His Own Words & Songs
The legendary folk singer and activist Pete Seeger died Monday
at the age of 94. For nearly seven decades, Seeger was a musical and political
icon who helped create the modern American folk music movement. We air
highlights of two appearances by Seeger on Democracy Now!, including one of his
last television interviews recorded just four months ago. Interspersed in the
interviews, Seeger sings some of his classic songs, "We Shall
Overcome," "If I Had a Hammer" and "Where Have All the
Flowers Gone." He also talks about what has been described as his “defiant
optimism.” "Realize that little things lead to bigger things. That’s what
[the album] 'Seeds' is all about," Seeger said. "And there’s a
wonderful parable in the New Testament: The sower scatters seeds. Some seeds
fall in the pathway and get stamped on, and they don’t grow. Some fall on the
rocks, and they don’t grow. But some seeds fall on fallow ground, and they grow
and multiply a thousandfold. Who knows where some good little thing that you’ve
done may bring results years later that you never dreamed of."
Seeger led an illustrious musical career. In the 1940s, he
performed in The Almanac Singers with Woody Guthrie. Then he formed The
Weavers. In the 1950s, he was blacklisted after he opposed Senator Joseph
McCarthy’s political witch hunt and was almost jailed for refusing to answer
questions before the House Un-American Activities Committee. Seeger became a
prominent civil rights activist and helped popularize the anthem "We Shall
Overcome." In the 1960s, he was a vocal critic of the Vietnam War and
inspired generations of protest singers. He was later at the center of the
environmental and anti-nuclear movements. With his wife Toshi, Pete helped
found Clearwater, a group to clean up the Hudson River. Toshi died last year
just weeks before their 70th wedding anniversary. In 2009, he and Bruce
Springsteen performed Guthrie’s "This Land is Your Land" on the steps
of the Lincoln Memorial at an inaugural concert for Barack Obama.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
PETE SEEGER: [singing] If I had a hammer,
I’d hammer in the morning,
I’d hammer in the evening,
All over this land,
I’d hammer out danger,
I’d hammer out a warning,
I’d hammer out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.
If I had a bell,
If I had a bell,
Ring it in the morning,
I’d ring it in the morning
Ring it in the evening!
Ring it in the evening,
All over this land,
Ring out danger
Ring out danger,
Ring out a warning,
Ring out a warning,
Ring out love, ring out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.
AMY GOODMAN: The legendary folk singer and activist Pete Seeger
died Monday at the age of 94. For nearly seven decades, Pete Seeger was a
musical and political icon who helped create the modern American folk music
movement. In the 1940s, he performed in The Almanac Singers with Woody Guthrie.
Then he formed The Weavers. In the '50s, he opposed Senator Joseph McCarthy's
witch hunt and was almost jailed for refusing to answer questions before the
House Un-American Activities Committee. Pete Seeger became a prominent civil
rights activist and helped popularize the anthem, "We Shall
Overcome." He was also a vocal critic of the Vietnam War and inspired a
generation of protest singers. Later in his life, Pete was at the center of the
environmental and anti-nuclear movements. With his wife Toshi, Pete Seeger
helped found Clearwater, a group to clean up the Hudson River. Toshi Seeger
died last year, just weeks before their 70th wedding anniversary. In 2009, Pete
and Bruce Springsteen performed Woody Guthrie’s "This Land is Your
Land" on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at an inaugural concert for
Barack Obama, when he first became president.
Pete Seeger last joined us on Democracy Now! just four months
ago. We’ll play highlights from that interview later, but first I want to turn
to Pete Seeger in 2004, when he joined us in our firehouse studio. I asked him
about his parents and their philosophy of raising him.
PETE SEEGER: Well, my father said, "Let Peter enjoy
himself. We’ll see what happens." And I think he was curious, because he
knew I liked music. My mother just left instruments all around the house. So I
could bang on a piano or an organ or a marimba, on a squeezebox or a penny
whistle or an auto-harp. And at age seven I was given a ukulele, and I’ve been
into fretted instruments ever since then. In prep school I joined the jazz
band. And then a few years later, my father took me to a square dance festival
in the Southern Mountains, and I suddenly realized there was a wealth of music
in my country that you never heard on the radio: old-time music, my brother
called it—I think a better name than folk music—all over the place. Depending where
you are, you hear different kinds of old-time music. And I still feel that I’d
like to see people not forget the old songs at the same time they’re making up
new songs.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you remember any of the songs that you heard
then?
PETE SEEGER: Oh, good gosh, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: That you’d like to play now?
PETE SEEGER: I can’t play them. My fingers are froze up, and my
voice, you hear, I can’t really sing anymore. What I do these days, I get the
audience singing with me. If I’m singing for children, needless to say, I say,
"Kids, you all know this song. If you don’t, you will in a minute. She’ll
be coming around the mountain, when she comes. Toot! Toot!" I’d say,
"Can’t you get the toot? Toot! Toot!" Well, pretty soon they’re all doing
it. "She’ll be coming around the mountain, when she comes. Toot!
Toot!" And the last verse, it’s cumulative, so you repeat all the previous
things. "She’ll be wearing red pajamas, when she comes. Scratch! Scratch!
She’ll be wearing red pajamas, when she comes. Scratch! Scratch! Wearing red
pajamas, she’ll be wearing red pajamas, she’ll be wearing red pajamas, when she
comes. Scratch! Scratch! Hoink-shoo! Yum! Yum! Hi, Babe! Woe, back! Toot!
Toot!" And even if the kids never heard the song before, they’re doing it
with me.
AMY GOODMAN: Pete, you traveled the South with Alan Lomax, and
to a lot of people that may not be a familiar name.
PETE SEEGER: Alan Lomax was the son of a Texas fella who
collected cowboy songs a hundred years ago. And that’s how we know "Home
on the Range" and other songs like it, "Whoopee Ti Yi Yo." And
in 1908, he got President Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, to write a short
forward for his book of cowboy songs.
Thirty years later, he had a son, and Alan was only 22 years
old. His father got him installed as the curator of the Archive of American
Folksong in the Library of Congress. And Alan in a few years did what most
people would take a lifetime to do. With utmost self-confidence, he calls up
the head of Columbia Radio and says, "You have a school of the air. Why
don’t you spend one year learning about American folk music? And the Columbia
symphony can play the music, after you’ve heard some old person croak out the
old ballad." And if he couldn’t find an old person to do it, he got young
me, age 19 and 20. And I still sing some of the songs I learned then.
’Tis advertised in Boston, New York and Buffalo,
five hundred brave Americans, a waggling for to go,
singing, blow ye winds of the morning, blow ye winds, high ho!
Clear away your running gear, and blow, blow, blow.
He interviewed the woman who collected that song when she was a
teenager sailing on her father’s whaling ship in the 19th century. Now, as an
old woman, she came out with a beautiful book, Songs of American Sailormen.
Joanna Colcord was her name, so he interviews her, has me sing a song, and then
the symphony orchestra plays it.
Well, Alan got me started, and many others. He’s the man who
told Woody Guthrie, he says, "Woody Guthrie, your mission in life is to
write songs. Don’t let anything distract you. You’re like the people who wrote
the ballads of Robin Hood and the ballad of Jesse James. You keep writing
ballads as long as you can." And Woody took it to heart. He wasn’t a good
husband. He was always running off. But he wrote songs, as you know.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you remember when you first met Woody Guthrie?
PETE SEEGER: Oh, yeah, I’ll never forget it. It was a benefit
concert for California agricultural workers on Broadway at midnight. Burl Ives
was there, the Golden Gate Quartet, Josh White, Leadbelly, Margo Mayo Square
Dance Group, with my wife dancing in it. I sang one song very amateurishly and
retired in confusion to a smattering of polite applause.
But Woody took over and for 20 minutes entranced everybody, not
just with singing, but storytelling. "I come from Oklahoma, you know? It’s
a rich state. You want some oil? Go down on the ground. Get you some hole. Get
you more oil. If you want lead, we got lead in Oklahoma. Go down a hole and get
you some lead. You want coal? We got coal in Oklahoma. Go down a hole, get you
some coal. If you want food, clothes or groceries, just go in the hole and stay
there." Then he’d sing a song.
AMY GOODMAN: When did you form The Weavers?
PETE SEEGER: That was after World War II. Lee Hays from
Arkansas, and his roommate Millard Lampell and I had started a group called The
Almanacs. And I wrote to Woody, I said, "Woody, we’re singing for unions
all around. Come out and join us. We’re in Madison Square Garden singing for striking
transport workers." And so Woody, once again, deserted his wife, came and
joined us. But Woody used to say, "The Almanacs are the only group I know
that rehearse on stage." We were very badly organized. And after World War
II, Lee says, "Pete, do you think we could start a group that would
actually rehearse?"
And we were fortunate to run into one of the world’s greatest
singers, Ronnie Gilbert. She was in her early twenties, beautiful alto voice,
and a strong alto voice. I’d have to be two inches from the microphone. She
could be two feet from the microphone, and she’d drown me out. She stood up to
three strong-voiced men, and the four of us, however, were about to break up,
when we did the unthinkable: We got a job at a nightclub.
Well, a little Greenwich Village place, it’s still down there,
the Village Vanguard. And the owner paid us—he didn’t want me first. He said,
"I can’t pay for a quartet. I’ll pay for you. I’ll pay you $200, like I
did two years ago." I said, "Well, what if the all four of us were
willing to come for $200?" That was low pay, even then. And he had
laughed. He said, "Well, if you’re willing." And we got $200 and free
hamburgers, until a month later he came and saw the size of the hamburgers I
was making. He said, "Let’s make that $250, but no more free
hamburgers."
And we stayed there six months. Near the end of it, we met an
extraordinary band leader, Gordon Jenkins, who loved our music and got us
signed up with Decca, and we had a record called, "Tzena, Tzena,
Tzena," and on the other side, the B-side—it was a
record—"_Irene_," good night, which sprang to number one, and for
three months stayed up there on top of the hit parade. It was the biggest
seller since World War II, and—
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk more about "Irene"?
PETE SEEGER: Well, it was the song, the theme song of the great
black singer, Leadbelly. He died in '49, and if he'd only lived another six
months, he would have seen his song all over America. It was an old, old song.
He’d simply changed and adapted it, added some verses and changed the melody,
what my father called the "folk process," but which happens all
through all kinds of music—in fact, all culture, you might say. Lawyers adapt
old laws to suit new citizens. Cooks adapt old recipes to fit new stomachs.
Anyway, I learned this 12-string guitar from Leadbelly. A high
string and a low string together, but played together to give a new tone. And
the song I really would like to sing to you is—always have to do with it—I
don’t sing it anymore. I give the words to the audience, and they sing it. I
says, "You know this song. To everything, turn, turn, turn, there is a
season. Sing it." And the whole audience sings, "Turn, turn, turn.
There is a season. And a time. And a time for every purpose under heaven. A
time to be born, a time to die. Sing it. A time to be born, a time to plant, to
reap. A time to plant, a time to kill, to heal. A time to kill, a time to
laugh, to weep. A time to laugh, a time to"—
You know, those words are 2,256 years old. I didn’t know that at
the time, but Julius Lester, an old friend of mine, he’s a—I don’t know if you
know him—he’s a black man who’s officially a Jew. He became fascinated with the
Bible. I asked him, "When was these words written?" He says,
"Well, the man’s name was Kohelet, meaning 'convoker,'" somebody who
calls people together to speak to them. In the Greek translation, they called
him Ecclesiastes, and he’s still in the King James Version as this. And it’s a
type of poetry, which is Greek. The Greeks have a word for it, anaphora,
A-N-A-P-H-O-R-A, and it means you start off a line with a word or a phrase. You
don’t have rhyme at the end of the line, but you do have—it becomes poetry by
the way it’s organized.
Well, I didn’t realize I liked the words, but I realize now.
Those are maybe some of the most fundamentally important words that anybody
could learn. You see, you and I, we’re all descended from killers, good
killers. The ones who were not good killers didn’t have descendants. But we’re
descended from good killers. For millions of years our ancestors were good
killers. They say if they hadn’t been, we wouldn’t be here today. Now is a new
period. In other words, it’s a time, you might say, the human race needed to
have good killers. Now, if we don’t change our way of thinking, there will be
no human race here, because science acts very irresponsibly—oh, any information
is good. Ha, ha, ha. They don’t realize that some information is very
important, some, frankly, forget about until we solve some other problems.
Einstein was the first person who said it: Everything has changed now, except
our way of thinking. And we’ve got to find ways to change our way of thinking.
Sports can do it. Arts can do it. Cooking can do it. All sorts
of good works can do it. Smiles can do it. And I’m of the opinion now that if
the human race makes it—I say we’ve got a 50-50 chance—if the human race makes
it, it’ll be women working with children, these two very large oppressed
classes in the human race. Children, doing what the grown-ups say they’re
supposed to do, and yet they’re going to have to pay for our mistakes. They’re
going to have to clean up the environment, which had been filled with
chemicals, the air being filled with chemicals, the water being filled with
chemicals, the ocean being filled with chemicals. And they’re going to have to
clean it up. And I think it will be women working with kids that’ll do this
job. In millions of little ways, maybe done in your hometown. In my hometown,
we’re starting a project to put in a floating swimming pool in the Hudson,
because now the Hudson is clean enough to swim in. Let’s swim in it. And if it
works in our little town, maybe other towns will do it. In fact, if this
swimming pool idea—it’s like a big netting in the water.
So, I confess I’m more optimistic now than I was 58 years ago,
59 years ago, when the atom bomb was dropped.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Pete Seeger in our firehouse studio with our
tell-tale radio headphones in 2004. The legendary folk singer and activist died
Monday at the age of 94. We’ll go back to our interview with him in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger and Bruce Springsteen and Tao
Rodríguez-Seeger, Pete’s grandson, singing "This Land is Your Land"
on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial ahead of President Obama’s inauguration in
2009. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m
Amy Goodman. Today, a Democracy Now! special, remembering the life of Pete
Seeger. The legendary folk singer and activist died Monday at the age of 94. We
now return to our interview in 2004 in our firehouse studio. I asked Pete to
talk about his time serving in the military during World War II.
PETE SEEGER: I first wanted to be a mechanic in the Air Force. I
thought that would be an interesting thing. But then military intelligence got
interested in my politics. My outfit went on to glory and death, and I stayed
there in Kiesler Field, Mississippi, picking up cigarette butts for six months.
Finally, they let me know, yes, they’d been investigating me, opening all my
mail.
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger, when you came back, they continued to
investigate you.
PETE SEEGER: Well, I have assumed most of my life that if there
wasn’t a microphone under the bed, they were tapping the phone from time to
time and opening my mail from time to time. Who knows?
AMY GOODMAN: But it was more than that, wasn’t it?
PETE SEEGER: Well, sometimes they’d have picket lines out, but,
you know, in a crazy way all it did was sell tickets. I remember one concert
did not sell out. My manager said, "Pete, we should have gotten the
Birches to picket you. Then it would have sold out."
AMY GOODMAN: I’m looking at a transcript of the House
Un-American Activities Committee, August 18th, 1955, when they started off by
saying—Mr. Taverner said, "When and where were you born, Mr. Seeger?"
You actually answered that question.
PETE SEEGER: Well, I wish I had been more—spoken up more. I just
did what my lawyer, a very nice guy—he says, "Don’t try to antagonize
them. Just don’t answer these questions, because if you answer this kind of
question, you’re going to have to answer more questions. Just say you don’t
think it’s legal." Well, I said, "I think I’ve got a right to my
opinion, and you have the right to your opinion. Period."
And so, eventually I was sentenced to a year in jail, but my
lawyer got me off on bail. I was only in jail for four hours, and I learned a
folk song. They served us lunch, a slice of bread and a slice of bologna and an
apple, and the man next to me was singing, "If that judge believes what I
say, I’ll be leaving for home today." The man next to him says, "Not
if he sees your record, you won’t." But that’s an old African melody, you
know. It’s in many, many African-American folk songs.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, you were sentenced to a year in jail?
PETE SEEGER: And a year later the appeals court acquitted me.
Ironically—the contradictions of life still amaze me—the judge who acquitted
me, the head judge—there were three judges—head one was Irving Kaufman, the man
who sentenced the Rosenbergs to the chair 10 years earlier. But he acquitted
me. He said, "We are not inclined to lightly disregard charges of
unconstitutionality, even though they may be made by those unworthy of our
respect."
However, I feel that—both my wife and I feel we’re lucky to be
alive and lucky to be on good terms with our neighbors, and in the little town
where we live, people shout out, "Hi, Pete! Hi, Toshi!" And I’d like
to—I wish I could live another 20 years just to see things that are happening,
because I believe that women working with children will get men to wake up to
what a foolish thing it is to seek power and glory and money in your life. What
a foolish thing. Here we are—
There’s a politician in my hometown, a very nice guy. He used to
be a shop steward for the union in the local factory, but for 20 years he
represented our town in the county legislature. And he said, "Pete, if you
don’t grow, you die." One o’clock in the morning, I sat up in bed and
thought of the next question. If that’s true, if you don’t grow, you die,
doesn’t it follow the quicker you grow, the sooner you die? Nobody is facing up
to that question, but it’s very definitely true. Now the first step in solving
a problem is to admit there’s a problem. Then we can argue about ways it could
be solved.
I suppose one person will say, "Well, let a few people have
trillions of dollars and the rest of the people obediently do the work, and the
people in charge will see that everything is done right." On other hand, I
think what was in the Declaration of Independence is true now just as it was
then. Those great lines, they’re written by Ben Franklin, you know, not
Jefferson. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights; that among these rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness;
that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed; that when any government
becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to
abolish it."
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger, can you tell us about "We Shall
Overcome"?
PETE SEEGER: I thought, in 1946, when I learned it from a white
woman who taught in a union labor school, the Highlander Folk School in
Tennessee, that the song had been made up in 1946 by tobacco workers, because
they sang it there to strike through the winter of 1946 in Charleston, South
Carolina, and they taught the song to Zilphia Horton, the teacher at the labor
school. And she said, "Oh, it was my favorite song." And I printed it
in our little magazine in New York, People’s Songs, as "We Will
Overcome" in 1947.
It was a friend of mine, Guy Carawan, who made it famous. He
picked up my way of singing it, "We Shall Overcome," although
Septima—there was another teacher there, Septima Clark, a black woman. She felt
that "shall"—like me, she felt it opened up the mouth better than
"will," so that’s the way she sang it. Anyway, Guy Carawan in 1960
taught it to the young people at the founding convention of SNCC, Student
Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC for short. And a month later, it wasn’t
a song, it was the song, throughout the South.
Only two years ago, I get a letter from a professor in
Pennsylvania, who uncovered an issue of the United Mine Workers Journal of
February 1909, and a letter there on front page says, "Last year at our
strike, we opened every meeting with a prayer, and singing that good old song,
'We Will Overcome.'" So it’s probably a late 19th century union version of
what was a well-known gospel song. I’ll overcome, I’ll overcome, I’ll overcome
some day.
AMY GOODMAN: You sang it for Martin Luther King?
PETE SEEGER: In 1957, I went down to Highlander. Zilphia was
dead, and Myles Horton, her husband, said, "We can’t have a celebration of
25 years with this school without music. Won’t you come down and help lead some
songs?" So I went down, and Dr. King and Reverend Abernathy came up from
Alabama to say a few words, and I sang a few songs, and that was one of them.
Ann Braden drove King to a speaking engagement in Kentucky the next day; and
she remembers him sitting in the back seat, saying, "'We Shall Overcome.'
That song really sticks with you, doesn’t it?" But he wasn’t the song
leader. It wasn’t until another three years that Guy Carawan made it famous.
AMY GOODMAN: Even as you’re singing songs like that, it has also
often been seen as a tremendous threat to the establishment. In 1963, the Fire
& Police Research Association of Los Angeles warned before one of your
appearances, Pete Seeger, that folk music in youth gatherings were being used
to brainwash and subvert vast segments of young people’s groups.
PETE SEEGER: Oh, poor—I hope they’ve learned a little different
now. That’s 40 years ago, 41 years ago, but the establishment has always been
concerned about music. I’ve quoted Plato for years, who wrote, "It’s very
important that the wrong kind of music not be allowed in the Republic."
And I’ve also heard there’s an old Arab proverb, "When the king puts the
poet on his payroll, he cuts off the tongue of the poet."
During the 1930s, I was very conscious that radio stations
played nice love songs and funny songs, but only by accident did a song like
"Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" get through. The other songs tended
to be more like Bing Crosby’s hit of 1933, I think. "Wrap your troubles in
dreams. Dream your troubles away." That’s how we’re going to lick the
Depression?
AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Pete Seeger, and on this
allmusic.com bio of you, it says, "Pete Seeger’s adherence to the sanctity
of folk music came to a boiling point with the advent of folk rock, and it’s
long been rumored that he tried to pull the plug on Bob Dylan’s very
electrified set with the Paul Butterfield Blues Band in 1965." Is that
true?
PETE SEEGER: No. It’s true that I don’t play electrified
instruments. I don’t know how to. On the other hand, I’ve played with people
who play them beautifully, and I admire some of them. Howling Wolf was using
electrified instruments at Newport just the day before Bob did. But I was
furious that the sound was so distorted you could not understand a word that he
was singing. He was singing a great song, "Maggie’s Farm," a great
song, but you couldn’t understand it. And I ran over to the soundman, said,
"Fix the sound so you can understand him." And they hollered back,
"No, this is the way they want it!" I don’t know who they was, but I
was so mad I said, "Damn, if I had an axe, I’d cut the cable right
now." I really was that mad. But I wasn’t against Bob going electric.
As a matter of fact, some of Bob’s songs are still my favorites.
What an artist he is. What a great—I would say maybe he and Woody and Buffy
Sainte-Marie and Joni Mitchell and Malvina Reynolds are the greatest
songwriters of the 20th century, even though Irving Berlin made the most money.
They wrote songs that were trying to help us understand where we are, what
we’ve got to do. Still are writing them.
AMY GOODMAN: In 1967, you made your stand against the Vietnam
War clear on the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour. Can you talk about that?
PETE SEEGER: Well, the Smothers Brothers were a big, big success
on CBS television. And way back the year before, I think in the spring of '67,
they said—CBS says, "Anything we can do for you? You're right at the top.
What can we do to make you happier?" And they said, "Let us have
Seeger on." And CBS said, "Well, we’ll think about it." Finally,
in October, they said, "OK, you can have him on." And I sang this
song "Waste deep in the big muddy, the big fool says to push on."
The tape was made in California, flown to New York. And in New
York they scissored the song out. And now, the Smothers Brothers took to the
print media and said, "CBS is censoring our best jokes. They censored
Seeger’s best song." And they got some publicity. And during November,
December and January, the arguments went on. Finally, in February—no, pardon
me, late January, late January of '68, CBS said, "OK, OK, he can sing the
song." On six hours' notice, I flew out to California.
I remember singing a batch of songs from American history, songs
from the Revolution, like "Come ye hither, redcoats, you mind what madness
fills. In our forest there is danger, there’s danger in our hills. Fall the
rifles, the rifles in our hands shall prove no trifle." I think I
mentioned the hit song of 1814. It was the hit song: "Oh, say can you
see." And the song of the Mexican War, "Green grow the lilacs all
sparking with dew." A love song. That’s why Yankees are called
"gringos" in Mexico, from that song. And, of course, the Civil War,
several good songs, not just "Battle Hymn of the Republic," but a
batch of them. The Spanish-American War, Oscar Brown taught me this song.
American soldiers in the Philippines, they were singing, "Damn, damn, damn
the Filipinos. Cross-eyed kakiack ladrones. And beneath the starry flag,
civilize them with a crag, and go back to our own beloved home." I didn’t
sing that. But along come modern times. I sang "Waste Deep in the Big
Muddy," and this time only a station in Detroit cut it out. But the rest
of the country heard it, so seven million people heard it.
Who knows? Later that month, in late February, Lyndon Johnson
decided not to run for re-election. The song would be probably just one more
thing. I honestly believe that the future is going to be millions of little
things saving us. I imagine a big seesaw, and at one end of this seesaw is on
the ground with a basket half-full of big rocks in it. The other end of the
seesaw is up in the air. It’s got a basket one-quarter full of sand. And some
of us got teaspoons, and we’re trying to fill up sand. A lot of people are
laughing at us, and they say, "Ah, people like you have been trying to do
that for thousands of years, and it’s leaking out as fast as you’re putting it
in." But we’re saying, "We’re getting more people with teaspoons all
the time." And we think, "One of these years, you’ll see that whole
seesaw go zooop in the other direction." And people will say, "Gee,
how did it happen so suddenly?" Us and all our little teaspoons. Now
granted, we’ve got to keep putting it in, because if we don’t keep putting teaspoons
in, it will leak out, and the rocks will go back down again. Who knows?
AMY GOODMAN: Do you see those cracks, those places, today in
mass media? I know you don’t watch TV and all that, but, for example, you going
on Smothers Brothers. Do you think that it is as constricted today?
PETE SEEGER: Not as constricted, no. There’s all sorts of little
things going on. I understand this program may be on some TV stations. I’ve got
to find out where, when, so I can see it. You’re right, I don’t look at TV
much, except to check on the weather for my skating rink. I’m a read-aholic and
a magazine-aholic, I get 40 or 50 magazines a month. And I read music
magazines, environmental magazines, union magazines, civil rights magazines.
Who knows?
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Pete Seeger in our firehouse studio in 2004.
The legendary folk singer and activist died Monday at the age of 94. We
continue remembering Pete in his own words and song.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger, singing "Waist Deep in the Big
Muddy" on the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour in 1967. This is Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we
remember the life of Pete Seeger, the legendary folk singer and activist. He
died Monday at the age of 94. We return to our interview in 2004 in our
firehouse studio. I asked Pete Seeger to talk about one of his most famous
songs, "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?"
PETE SEEGER: Well, I was sitting in an airplane on my way to
sing at Oberlin College. I was over Ohio, and—
AMY GOODMAN: What year?
PETE SEEGER: —half-dozing. Year, 1955. And all of a sudden,
three lines, which I had read in a book, took form. In the book, it simply
said, "Where are the flowers? The girls have plucked them. Where are the
girls? They’re all married. Where are the men? They’re all in the army."
It’s an old Russian folk song. And the Don Cossacks—maybe it’s a Ukrainian folk
song. "Koloda Duda" is the original name, but I didn’t know that. All
I knew is I had read these three lines in the book And Quiet Flows the Don by a
Soviet novelist. And all of a sudden, I had three verses. I didn’t realize it
at the time, I had swiped part of the verse from an old Irish song. I had been
recording a lumberjack song from the Adirondacks: "Johnson says he’ll load
more hay, says he’ll load 10 times a day." You can really see, I slowed it
down, and I pinned the words to the microphone that night and sang them.
And a few weeks later, I was walking down 48th Street,
Manhattan, stopped in at Folkways Records, said, "I made up a new
song." And then, Moe Asch propped a mic up in front of me and recorded it.
And a few months later it was out on another LP. An Oberlin College student got
the LP at a job at a summer camp, and the kids were fooling around with the
verses: "Where have all the counselors gone, broken curfew everyone."
But by the end of the summer, he had made up the two extra verses we know.
"Where have the soldiers gone, gone to graveyards. Where have the
graveyards gone, covered with flowers."
And the kids took the song back to New York. Peter, Paul and
Mary were singing in the Village, in Greenwich Village, and picked it up,
started singing it. The Kingston Trio learned it from them. And about three
years later, my manager says, "Pete, didn’t you write a song called 'Where
Have All the Flowers Gone'?" I said, "Yeah, about three years
ago." He said, "Did you copyright it?" "No, I guess I never
did." He said, "Well, you ought to. The Kingston Trio have recorded
it."
Well, I got on the phone to Dave Guard. He was an old friend. He
had started playing the banjo because he got my book, my bestseller. I
mimeographed it first, but later printed it. It’s printed 100,000 copies. How
to Play the Five-String Banjo. He wrote me a year later. He says, "I’ve
been putting that book to hard use. I and two others have a group we call The
Kingston Trio." So I called him up. "Oh, Pete, we didn’t know it was
your song. We’ll take our name off it." It was very nice of him, because
technically, legally, I had, as they say, quote, "abandoned
copyright." But they took their name off, and my manager copyrighted it.
It pays my taxes these days, that song. It’s been translated into dozens of
other languages.
AMY GOODMAN: Pete, could you play "Where Have All the
Flowers Gone?"
PETE SEEGER: Where — ah, maybe I’ll just sing the very, very
last verse, because the contradictions of life still amaze me. You have to
laugh, if you don’t cry.
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one.
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?
AMY GOODMAN: You still have your voice.
PETE SEEGER: It’s in the cellar.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about getting older?
PETE SEEGER: Oh, it’s no fun to lose your memory or your hearing
or your eyesight, but from my shoulders on down I’m in better condition than
most men my age. I can go skiing with the family, although I stick to the
intermediate slopes. I don’t try the double diamond.
AMY GOODMAN: Pete, you sit here listening with headphones on.
You’re a singer. Sound is very important. It’s not as easy for you to hear
things so clearly anymore. How has that affected you?
PETE SEEGER: Well, I’m singing to myself all the time, just
humming or just in my brain. I’m not making any sound. But admittedly, I
can’t—unless I have earphones on, I can’t really—even with what they call
hearing aids, I can’t really hear music. I don’t listen to CDs. I don’t listen
to the radio. I don’t listen to TV. And occasionally, when friends come around,
I’ll join in with them, but my fingers are slowing down. I hear records that I
made years ago and say, "How did I ever play that so fast?"
On the other hand, these are exciting times. There’s never been
such as exciting times. And win, lose or draw, it’s going to be very, very
exciting. And I applaud what you are doing. I think what Democracy Now! is
doing is just fantastic. This couldn’t have been done half a century ago, could
not have been done.
AMY GOODMAN: Why?
PETE SEEGER: Well, they didn’t have the technology for it, I
guess. So as I say, technology will save us if it doesn’t wipe us out first.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, final words, Pete Seeger, as we wrap up this
conversation—the role of music, culture and politics.
PETE SEEGER: They’re all tangled up. Hooray for tangling!
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for being with
us. And for someone who isn’t so hopeful who is listening to this right now,
trying to find their way, what would you say?
PETE SEEGER: Realize that little things lead to bigger things.
That’s what Seeds is all about. And there’s a wonderful parable in the New
Testament: The sower scatters seeds. Some seeds fall in the pathway and get
stamped on, and they don’t grow. Some fall on the rocks, and they don’t grow.
But some seeds fall on fallow ground, and they grow and multiply a
thousandfold. Who knows where some good little thing that you’ve done may bring
results years later that you never dreamed of.
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger speaking in 2004 on Democracy Now!. The
legendary folk singer and activist died Monday at the age of 94. He last
appearedhiroshimabombing on Democracy Now! in August. He talked about one of
his most famous songs.
PETE SEEGER: The song, "If I Had a Hammer," went all
sorts of places that I could never go, and I’m very glad.
[singing] If I had a hammer,
I’d hammer in the morning,
I’d hammer in the evening,
All over this land,
I’d hammer out danger,
Hammer out a warning,
Hammer out love between,
All of my brothers,
Oh, a woman said, "Make that 'My brothers and my
sisters.'" Lee says, "It doesn’t roll off the tongue so well. But she
insisted. He said, "How about 'All of my siblings'?" She didn’t think
that was funny.
[singing] All over this land.
If I had a song,
Don’t need to sing the whole song. You can sing it to yourself,
whether you’re driving a car or washing the dishes or just singing to your
kids. We haven’t mentioned children much on this program, but it may be
children realizing that you can’t live without love, you can’t live without fun
and laughter, you can’t live without friends—and I say, "Long live
teachers of children," because they can show children how they can save
the world.
AMY GOODMAN: And we end with more Pete Seeger just four months
ago.
PETE SEEGER: We shall overcome.
We shall overcome.
We shall overcome some day.
Oh, deep in my heart,
I know that I do believe,
We shall overcome...
AMY GOODMAN: You’ve been listening to Pete Seeger in his own
words and song. He died yesterday, Monday, at the age of 94. For a copy of
today’s show, go to our website at democracynow.org, and go there to watch all
of our Pete Seeger shows, including his 90th birthday celebration featuring
Bruce Springsteen, Bernice Johnson Reagon and Joan Baez.
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HEADLINES:
Folk Icon, Activist Pete Seeger Dies at 94
The legendary folk singer and activist Pete Seeger has died at
the age of 94. Seeger helped found the American folk music movement. He played
with Woody Guthrie and The Almanac Singers in the 1940s, stood up against
Senator Joseph McCarthy’s witch hunt in the 1950s, and opposed the Vietnam War
in the 1960s, inspiring generations of protest singers to come. We’ll spend the
hour remembering Seeger after headlines. Click here to watch.
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Ukraine’s Parliament Repeals Anti-Protest Laws; PM Offers to
Resign
Ukraine’s parliament has voted to repeal a round of anti-dissent
laws in an effort to calm opposition protests that have gripped the country.
The measures are unlikely to appease protesters who have demanded the
resignation of President Viktor Yanukovych. Earlier today, Ukranian Prime
Minister Mykola Azarov offered to resign. Yanukovych had previously offered
Azarov’s post to an opposition leader, who rejected it.
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Syria Talks Still Deadlocked over Assad’s Role; U.S. Says People
Starving in Homs
Talks in Geneva between the two sides in Syria’s conflict remain
deadlocked over the future role of President Bashar al-Assad. Another issue at
stake is the delivery of aid to the besieged city of Homs. U.S. State
Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said the situation there is desperate.
Jen Psaki: "We firmly believe that the Syrian regime must
approve the convoys to deliver badly needed humanitarian assistance into the
old city of Homs now. The situation is desperate, and the people are starving.
What the regime has proposed, an evacuation of women and children from the old
city, is not sufficient. Civilians must be allowed to come and go freely, but
the people of Homs must not be forced to leave their homes and split up their
families before receiving much-needed food and other aid."
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Egypt’s Generals Back Army Chief for President; Gunmen Kill Aide
to Interior Minister
Egypt’s top military body has given its approval for military
leader General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi to run for president after he led the coup
that ousted President Mohamed Morsi last year. Morsi appeared in court today
for the second time since his ouster to face charges related to his escape from
prison in 2011. He was shown inside a metal cage in the courtroom. Earlier
today, a senior official with Egypt’s Interior Ministry was gunned down outside
his Cairo home in the latest sign of growing activity by militants.
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Obama to Raise Minimum Wage for Federal Contract Workers
President Obama is set to announce an executive action to raise
the minimum wage for some federal contract workers from $7.25 an hour to
$10.10. Obama will make the announcement during his State of the Union address
tonight. He is also expected to renew his push for immigration reform.
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U.S. Loosens Gag on Secret Demands for User Info
The Obama administration has loosened restrictions on what
Internet companies can reveal about how frequently the government secretly
demands information about users. But the new rules still bar companies from
revealing details, including the nature and amount of data collected by the
government. The new rules come after tech companies sued for permission to
release more data on the requests. The American Civil Liberties Union called
the rules a "critical step," but said more transparency is required,
including about requests the tech companies are not aware of.
-------
Snowden Docs Reveal British Spying on YouTube, NSA Targeting of
Smartphone Apps
A new report from Glenn Greenwald and NBC News based on leaks
from Edward Snowden reveals the British government can spy on social media
sites, including YouTube, in real time, without the knowledge of companies.
Another round of news reports based on Snowden’s disclosures found the National
Security Agency and its British counterpart are targeting smartphone apps —–
including the popular game Angry Birds –— for personal data on users, from
their location to their sexual preferences.
-------
Snowden: U.S. Conducts Spying for Economic Gain
Edward Snowden has continued to denounce U.S. spying from
Russia, where he has temporary asylum. In an interview that aired this past
weekend, Snowden told a German broadcaster the United States conducts spying
for economic gain.
Edward Snowden: "I don’t want to pre-empt the editorial
decisions of journalists, but what I will say is there’s no question that the
U.S. is engaged in economic spying. If there is information at Siemens that
they think would be beneficial to the national interests, not the national
security, of the United States, they’ll go after that information, and they’ll
take it."
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Deal on Farm Bill Would Slash Food Stamps, Keep Crop Subsidies
House and Senate lawmakers have reached a deal on a new farm
bill that would continue heavy subsidies for crops like corn and soybeans while
slashing food stamps by about $8 billion over the coming decade. The bill would
end billions of dollars in direct payments to farmers while expanding
government-subsidized crop insurance. Anti-hunger groups say the bill boosts
corporate welfare while gutting food aid for many families by about $90 per
month. The House is set to vote on the measure on Wednesday.
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Honduras: Thousands Protest Swearing-In of Right-Wing President
Juan Orlando Hernández
In Honduras, right-wing President Juan Orlando Hernández has
been sworn into office despite claims of election fraud by the opposition.
Hernández has pushed for militarizing Honduras as part of the fight against
drug cartels, raising concerns about potential human rights abuses. Thousands
of people protested outside his swearing-in Monday, including members of
parliament, while soldiers stood by in close proximity. The protest was led by
former President Manuel Zelaya, who was ousted in a coup in 2009 and whose
wife, Xiomara Castro, ran against Hernández with the LIBRE Party.
Manuel Zelaya: "No one can detain a people organized in
resistance. All that the LIBRE Party owns has been gained. Four years ago, we
were repressed in the street. Today, we are a recognized institution, and we
are walking forward little by little in order to overthrow the dictatorship
from power in Honduras."
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New York City: Gay Journalist Attacked in Possible Hate Crime
In New York City, police are investigating an attack on an
openly gay journalist as a possible hate crime. Randy Gener has reported and
written for National Public Radio, The New York Times, the New York Daily News
and other outlets. Earlier this month, he was found lying on the ground
unconscious with a massive head injury that required him to undergo brain
surgery. His sister told New York’s WABC her brother could not remember the
assault.
Jessica Blair Driessler: "He can’t answer the questions of
what happened that night. He doesn’t really exactly know who we are. And it’s
really very painful to see him, hear the way that he is, because he’s the most
articulate person."
The attack on Randy Gener comes amid a spike in apparent hate
crimes against LGBT people in New York City, including the murder of Mark
Carson last May and the killing of Islan Nettles, a transgender woman, last
August.
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Israeli Civil Rights Leader, Former Politician Shulamit Aloni
Dies at 85
The Israeli civil rights leader and longtime politician Shulamit
Aloni has died at the age of 85. Aloni was a longtime champion of Palestinian
and women’s rights in Israel. She served as a member of the Israeli Knesset for
nearly three decades, holding a number of Cabinet posts. In 1991, Aloni helped
found Israel’s Meretz Party after splitting with the Labor Party. Appearing on
Democracy Now! in 2002, Aloni called on the U.S. government to end its support
of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.
Shulamit Aloni: "The only thing is when your government
will understand that the only backing they have to give to the conflict in
Israel is to stop the occupation, to stop the settlers, to tell Mr. Sharon to
stop the crimes against humanity and against individuals, and to stop taking
away citizenship from people, which is a criminal thing to do."
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Aaron Swartz: The Life We Lost and the Day We Fight Back by Amy
Goodman
PARK CITY, Utah—A year after Internet freedom activist Aaron
Swartz’s suicide at the age of 26, a film about this remarkable young man has
premiered at the Sundance Film Festival. The film, titled “The Internet’s Own
Boy: The Story of Aaron Swartz,” directed by Brian Knappenberger, follows the
sadly short arc of Aaron’s life. He committed suicide while under the crushing
weight of unbending, zealous federal prosecutors, who had Aaron snatched off
the street near the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, accusing him of
computer crimes.
At the age of 14, Aaron helped develop RSS, “Really Simple
Syndication,” which changed how people get online content. He co-founded one of
the Internet’s most popular websites, Reddit. In the year before his death, he
helped defeat a notorious bill before Congress, the Stop Online Piracy Act
(SOPA), which would have granted corporations sweeping powers of censorship
over the Internet. Now, another fight for the freedom of the Internet has
begun. This one will have to be waged without Aaron.
A coalition of Internet activists, technologists and policy
experts are joining together on Feb. 11 for “The Day We Fight Back.” As they
say on their website, reflecting on the victory against SOPA, “Today we face a
different threat, one that undermines the Internet, and the notion that any of
us live in a genuinely free society: mass surveillance. If Aaron were alive,
he’d be on the front lines, fighting against a world in which governments
observe, collect, and analyze our every digital action.” Before Edward Snowden
made “NSA” and “mass surveillance” household terms, Aaron was speaking out
against the National Security Agency’s bulk collection programs. His brother,
Noah Swartz, told me, “I think Aaron’s message that we can all take with us is
that ... we can see the change we want to see in the world by participating,
rather than feeling helpless and useless.”
The legal case that was overwhelming Aaron was brought by
Assistant U.S. Attorney Stephen P. Heymann and U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz. When
Aaron was a fellow at Harvard University, he went to nearby MIT, which allowed
members of the public to use its computer network, and to access resources on
it, including the database of digitized academic research articles maintained
by the nonprofit company JSTOR. He wrote a computer program that allowed a
laptop to automatically download articles, and proceeded to download millions
of them. JSTOR noticed and contacted MIT, and MIT in turn contacted the police.
The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act was enacted in 1986 to
prosecute people engaged in credit-card fraud or threatening national security.
Since Aaron, like any member of the public, had permission to use MIT’s
network, he was not committing fraud. Aaron felt that the academic articles
represented a cultural commons that should be shared. JSTOR decided not to
press charges. Yet the federal prosecutors went ahead anyway.
Aaron’s father, Bob Swartz (who, ironically, is a consultant for
the MIT Media Lab), says what followed was a “nearly sadistic prosecution.”
Aaron’s defense attorney, Elliott Peters, told me, “Aaron wasn’t a thief. ...
He certainly downloaded more of JSTOR than they wanted, but it wasn’t to steal
anything.” Aaron refused to accept a plea bargain, which would have made him a
felon. He was facing 35 years in prison and a $1 million fine.
Bob Swartz is incensed at MIT, who, he said, “cooperated with
the prosecutor. They provided the prosecutor evidence without a subpoena and a
warrant. They violated any number of laws. ... They also refused to cooperate
with us, give us evidence, and we had very significant difficulty even getting
them to respond.” Peters alleges prosecutorial misconduct, saying that Heymann
withheld exculpatory evidence and more. Even now, a year after Aaron’s death,
Peters and the Swartz family are still trying to get all the documentation from
federal prosecutors. They are also working with Congressmember Zoe Lofgren,
D-Calif., to pass “Aaron’s Law,” which would reform the Computer Fraud and
Abuse Act to eliminate the overbroad language that gives prosecutors a license
to charge trivial computer behavior as a felony.
In the meantime, his brother, Noah, is actively organizing for
the Feb. 11 Day We Fight Back against mass surveillance. In a speech after the
defeat of the SOPA bill, Aaron Swartz recounted the truly grass-roots, global
nature of the protests. He left the crowd with this call to action: “If we let
them persuade us we didn’t actually make a difference, if we start seeing it as
someone else’s responsibility to do this work ... then next time they might
just win. Let’s not let that happen.”
Denis Moynihan contributed research to this column.
Amy Goodman is the host of “Democracy Now!,” a daily
international TV/radio news hour airing on more than 1,000 stations in North
America. She is the co-author of “The Silenced Majority,” a New York Times
best-seller.
© 2014 Amy Goodman
Distributed by King Features Syndicate
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