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"Did God Tell You to Treat Us Like This?": Protests Grow over Clerk's Denial of Same-Sex MarriagesIn Kentucky, the county clerk who has defied the Supreme Court and refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples is set to appear before a federal judge today to ... Read More →
"Did God Tell You to Treat Us Like This?": Protests Grow over Clerk’s Denial of Same-Sex Marriages
In Kentucky, the county clerk who has defied the Supreme Court and refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples is set to appear before a federal judge today to make her case for why she shouldn’t be held in contempt of court. Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis stopped issuing all marriage licenses rather than comply with the Supreme Court ruling in June that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. On Monday, the Supreme Court denied Davis’ appeal that the court grant her "asylum for her conscience." The next day, same-sex couples went to Davis’ office. In a video that went viral, David Moore confronted Davis about her decision not to issue same-sex marriage licenses. We speak with Moore about how he and his partner, David Ermold, have been denied a marriage license on three occasions by Kim Davis and staffers in her office. We’re also joined by Chris Hartman, director of the Fairness Campaign, Kentucky’s statewide LGBT advocacy group, and Joe Dunman, an attorney who represented the plaintiffs and petitioners in several Kentucky marriage cases which were consolidated into the Supreme Court case that effectively made marriage equality the law of the land.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: In Kentucky, the county clerk who has defied the Supreme Court and refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples is set to appear before a federal judge in just a few hours to make her case for why she shouldn’t be held in contempt of court. Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis stopped issuing all marriage licenses rather than comply with the Supreme Court ruling in June that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. On Monday, the Supreme Court denied Davis’s appeal that the court grant her asylum for her conscience. The next day, same-sex couples confronted Davis at her office. David Moore asked her why she wasn’t issuing licenses.
DAVID MOORE: The injunction is the order that you’re supposed to issue marriage licenses.
KIM DAVIS: And we’re not issuing marriage licenses today.
DAVID MOORE: The Supreme Court denied your stay.
KIM DAVIS: We are not issuing marriage licenses today. So I would—
DAVID MOORE: Based on what?
KIM DAVIS: I would ask you all to go ahead and leave.
DAVID MOORE: Why are you not issuing marriage licenses today?
KIM DAVIS: Because I’m not.
DAVID ERMOLD: Under whose authority are you not issuing licenses?
DAVID MOORE: Why? Whose authority?
KIM DAVIS: Under God’s authority.
DAVID ERMOLD: I don’t believe in your god.
DAVID MOORE: Did God tell you to do this? Did God tell you treat us like this?
DAVID ERMOLD: I don’t believe in your god. I don’t believe in your god.
KIM DAVIS: I’ve asked you all the leave. You are interrupting my business.
DAVID MOORE: You can call the police if you want us to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED: It’s not your business; it’s the public’s.
DAVID MOORE: You can call the police. I pay your salary.
KIM DAVIS: That’s exactly right. The public can’t get in here.
DAVID MOORE: I pay your salary! I pay you to discriminate against me right now. That’s what I’m paying for. That’s what I’m paying for. I’m paying for this memory with my partner that I love that I’ve been with for 17 years. What’s the longest you’ve been with someone, that you’ve been married to someone?
KIM DAVIS: I’m asking you to leave.
DAVID MOORE: I’m not leaving.
DAVID ERMOLD: We’re not leaving until we have a license.
KIM DAVIS: Then you’re going to have a long day. Good day.
DAVID MOORE: Well, then, call the police. When they come, I’ll ask them to arrest you.
UNIDENTIFIED: Do your job!
DAVID MOORE: Call the police! Call the police! I will have—I will ask them to arrest you.
UNIDENTIFIED: Do your job!
UNIDENTIFIED: Coward!
DAVID MOORE: You should be ashamed of yourself! Everyone in this office should be ashamed of themselves. Is this what you want to remember? Is this what you want to remember, that you stood up for this? That your children have to look at you and realize that you’re bigots and you discriminated against people? Is that what you want? Is that what you want?
DEPUTY CLERK: I answer to God, and God’s word is my calling.
DAVID ERMOLD: God does not belong in the County Clerk’s Office.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That’s David Moore arguing with Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis. In a filing Wednesday, attorneys for Kim Davis argued a court order requiring her to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, quote, "irreparably and irreversibly violates her conscience." Meanwhile, the Republican president of the Kentucky state Senate has come to Kim Davis’s defense, asking a federal judge to withhold his order for her to issue same-sex marriage licenses so that the state Legislature can pass a law exempting her from having to do so.
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, national attention is focused on Kim Davis’s own marital history. She has been married four times, including twice to her current husband. She says she had a religious awakening about four years ago when her mother-in-law asked, as a dying wish, for Davis to go to church. In a statement, Davis said, quote, "There I heard a message of grace and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. ... I love my Lord and must be obedient to Him and to the Word of God," she wrote.
Well, to talk more about Kim Davis, we’re joined by three guests. David Moore is a graphic designer from Morehead, Kentucky. He and his partner, David Ermold, were denied a marriage license on three occasions by Kim Davis and staffers in her office. His voice is the one you just heard on that video we just played arguing with Kim Davis. That video has gone viral—more than 1.8 million hits. Chris Hartman is also with us. He’s the director of the Fairness Campaign, Kentucky’s statewide LGBT advocacy group, based in Louisville. They’re both joining us from Lexington, Kentucky. But we are also going to Louisville to speak with attorney Joe Dunman, who represented the plaintiffs and petitioners in several in Kentucky marriage cases which were consolidated into the Supreme Court case that effectively made marriage equality the law of the land.
David, let’s begin with you in Lexington. Describe that interaction that you had with the county clerk, Kim Davis. Where were you? What were you asking for? And what did she say to you?
DAVID MOORE: I was in the County Clerk’s Office in Morehead. We went in. Press was everywhere. We actually saw the couple that went in before us, who are a part of the ACLU case. They came out. We saw that they were denied. At first we thought they got it, but then they turned around and said that they were denied. We walked up to the counter. We stood there for maybe three or four minutes talking to the deputy clerk. She said that Kim Davis was in her office. We could see her blinds were drawn, and she wasn’t speaking to anyone. And we pretty much demanded that she come out and face the people. She said she was willing to face the day, so I think it was only fair that she come out and face the people that she was denying a license to. When she came out, I—we both felt infuriated that they were still denying our rights to get a marriage license in the county that we live in, in the home, you know, that we live in. I was infuriated. I just could not control myself. I refuse to accept that. I just refuse.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, David Moore, you’ve suggested that Kim Davis has a lot of support for the position that she’s taking. Could you elaborate on that? Support from whom?
DAVID MOORE: Well, that day, there were protesters and supporters for both sides outside the courthouse. She had support from, I guess, local church groups. And a lot of people that come outside, from outside the community, you know, they came to support her. And the thing is, if she would issue marriage licenses today to everyone, those people who are coming out to say, "We stand with Kim Davis," they would not be protesting. They would not be protesting people just going and getting their license. She is basically sending like a rallying signal that she’s a victim. And she’s not a victim. So, really, it’s just this false signal—"Oh, come and help me"—so all these people show up. But really, she doesn’t need any help, because her rights haven’t been changed or taken away in any way whatsoever.
AMY GOODMAN: David, I want to go to another video of you at the Rowan County Courthouse. This is the second time that you and your partner, David Ermold, attempted to get a marriage license. After staffers in Kim Davis’s offices refused to issue you a license—they said she was not there that day—the two of you go down the hall to the office of the Rowan County judge/executive, Dr. Walter "Doc" Blevins. He was not yet in the office, but his aide calls him and lets you speak with him by phone.
DAVID MOORE: Nope, won’t do it. So...
DAVID ERMOLD: What was his reason?
DAVID MOORE: He doesn’t have the paperwork, no paperwork, doesn’t have the software. He wants the judges to figure out, wants it to go through the court system.
DAVID ERMOLD: It is through the court system.
DAVID MOORE: He said he cannot force anyone in her office to do it. They can’t force her to do it. He said there’s one person in her office that’s willing to do it, but they can’t do it without her authorization. So, there’s—no, there’s nothing.
DAVID ERMOLD: Wow.
DAVID MOORE: So, [inaudible].
DAVID ERMOLD: Basically, if you want a statement from me, I will say that people are cruel. They are cruel. People are cruel. And this is wrong. And that’s how it is. That is how it is. And that’s the bottom line. She’s wrong, and these people are cruel to do this to us.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s David Ermold and David Moore. I want to go to Joe Dunman, who’s in Louisville, Kentucky. You’re an attorney who has worked on this case. You have spearheaded the case that really led to the Supreme Court decision for marriage equality in the United States. What is the law here?
JOE DUNMAN: Well, the law—there’s two different kinds of the law. The first is the federal Constitution, which, the Supreme Court has said, requires states to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. And then there’s the state law, which requires clerks to issue the licenses. And that’s what Kim Davis is violating. She is saying that she has a religious objection to following a Kentucky statute, which is neutral and very simple and just says clerks must issue licenses. She doesn’t really have a legal argument, because the courts have never observed that public officials have religious—can have a religious exception to just doing their jobs. And so, we’re making a very simple argument here that just says that public officials must do their jobs. If there’s a conflict with their beliefs, then they need to resign or, you know, lobby the General Assembly to change the law in the meantime. But they still have to follow the statute and issue the licenses.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Joe Dunman, there’s a hearing on the case today. On what grounds, if at all, would it be possible for the judge to rule in Kim Davis’s favor?
JOE DUNMAN: I don’t know. I don’t think there are any grounds. I mean, we made a simple motion. You know, we have an injunction in place that requires her to issue licenses. She’s violating that by not doing so. We’ve simply asked that the court impose a financial penalty, which will incentivize her to do her job. And, you know, we don’t think there’s any grounds for them to argue otherwise. Of course, her attorneys disagree.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And she could keep appealing every court order, is that right?
JOE DUNMAN: Yeah, each order that’s considered final, she can appeal. So far, she has shown quite an interest in doing so. It’s important to note that we’re at the very beginning of the litigation here. We just have a preliminary injunction in place. We haven’t done any kind of discovery. We haven’t looked at any documents. We haven’t done really much of anything other than file some briefs. And so, we’re still in the early stages. And even though the injunction is in place, it’s being appealed to the Sixth Circuit, so we still have to take an argument there while the rest of the case sits in the district court. So, yeah, it’s kind of a unique procedural place we’re in.
AMY GOODMAN: So, two questions: One, the significance of Kim Davis being an elected official; and two, when she says that she is having her rights violated, she’s trying to follow her conscience?
JOE DUNMAN: Yeah, well, public officials, it’s an important distinction, because, you know, they don’t operate as individuals. The government is not compelling them to do something as private citizens. It’s asking them to do something as their employer. And the case law is very clear that, you know, the government, as an employer, can tell its employees what to do, to a certain extent. And all the case law about the First Amendment and how it operates for public officials is very clear. You know, they have to do their jobs. If they don’t, they have the option to resign. It’s not mandatory that they hold that office, it’s voluntary. And because it’s voluntary, they can always choose to do something else. And I’m sorry, your second question?
AMY GOODMAN: Talking about her saying that her rights are being violated, that this is against her religion.
JOE DUNMAN: Right. You know, she has done—she made a big effort in this case to portray herself as the victim here, but the victims are our clients. They’re the ones who have been denied marriage licenses to which they’re entitled. She is trying to say that she is the one being victimized. She has actually sued the governor as a third-party defendant, claiming that his letter to all the clerks earlier in the year asking them to issue licenses somehow infringes her rights, except that that letter doesn’t compel her to do anything. And she’s ignoring it anyway. And so, she’s complicated this procedurally in a way to make herself seem like a victim, when really it’s our clients who are the ones who are entitled to marriage licenses and can’t get them in their home, where they deserve them.
AMY GOODMAN: She could as easily say, "It is against my religion to serve any black person."
JOE DUNMAN: Well, I mean, that’s the logical extension of her argument. I mean, if we give her a religious exemption, then we give all public officials that kind of exemption, and then there’s no rules. And then the 14th Amendment stops meaning anything. Equal protection stops meaning anything. You just have to hope that when you walk into the clerk’s office every day, you know, when you need a document, that the clerk shares all your beliefs; otherwise, they can turn you away.
AMY GOODMAN: How many of these cases are being brought around the country? I mean, you are the lawyer who spearheaded the case that went to the Supreme Court that legalized marriage equality in this country. How much are we seeing this in—not only in Kentucky, but in other states?
JOE DUNMAN: Well, I had a lot of help in that effort for marriage equality, I wasn’t alone. But as far as the clerk fight, it’s a little different. I know in Alabama they do it through probate judges, and they’ve—I believe it’s 11 probate judges in Alabama are still saying that they won’t issue any marriage licenses, despite court orders to the contrary. And I want to say there’s a fight going on in Texas, but I’m not really clear on it. Our case—in Kentucky, there’s at least three clerks who are refusing to issue any marriage licenses, and Kim Davis is just one of them. But, you know, we have 120 counties, and three of them are protesting, so percentage-wise we’re doing pretty good. For the most part, the country is complying with the Supreme Court’s order, as we should expect.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: I’d like to ask Chris Hartman of the Fairness Campaign how representative Kim Davis is of other counties in Kentucky. You have been lobbying for fairness laws for a long time across the state. Could you say a little about that?
CHRIS HARTMAN: Right. Kentucky really is a state of fairness, not of Kim Davis. She’s not representative of the population. More than a quarter of Kentucky residents now live in a city or a county that has anti-discrimination protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals, including the city of Morehead, where Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis works. Morehead actually was the only city in Kentucky to unanimously approve LGBT discrimination protections. Now there are seven other cities and counties in our state that extend those protections, and those numbers keep on increasing every year. Kim Davis is making a last gasp right now with her lawyers from the Liberty Counsel, who are imported into Kentucky. These are late Reverend Jerry Falwell’s lawyers. They’re not even Kentucky lawyers bringing the case before the courts right now.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Chris Hartman, another organization that’s been active in lobbying for LGBT rights is Freedom to Marry, and its national campaign director said that the Kim Davis incident is, quote, "a very small temporary blip that will take care of itself." Do you agree with that assessment?
CHRIS HARTMAN: I do agree with that assessment, that I think even by the end of today or tomorrow marriage licenses are going to start coming out of Rowan County; that sooner, rather than later, folks will be able to get married in every county in which they live across the United States. This is a temporary roadblock. It is a small, but very vocal, population that are simply fighting back and attempting to make as much noise as they can, because they know that the vast majority of Americans and Kentuckians support LGBT rights.
AMY GOODMAN: The other three clerks in Kentucky who are saying no, like Kim Davis, Chris?
CHRIS HARTMAN: Casey Davis, Kay Schwartz, right. Whitley County, Casey County.
AMY GOODMAN: Will their case take the exact same legal route?
CHRIS HARTMAN: Certainly, if there are cases brought against them. I think that they’re probably waiting to see what happens in Kim Davis’s case. And I think the message will be clear and resounding. I don’t believe Judge Bunning is going to tolerate any more delay of couples like David and his longtime partner getting the marriage licenses that they deserve, that the Supreme Court has twice affirmed is their constitutional right to obtain. Kim Davis and these other two county clerks cannot stand in the way much longer.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, David Moore, as we watched you attempt to get a marriage license again and again, tell us why you want to get married, why this is important to you, and what you plan to do now.
DAVID MOORE: Well, we’ve been together for 17 years, my partner and I, and we kind of already feel like we are married. We went through all the commitment and all the ups and downs that you have in a marriage. This is just kind of a final legal, you know, symbol of our love for each other and our commitment, that everybody else is able to share in, and we should be able to share in that, too. I think we’ve demonstrated, just by being together for this long, you know, that we deserve that same right. Anyone deserves that right.
What we plan to do is, hopefully, we’ll be able to get a license very soon in Rowan County. It’s our home, it’s where we live and work. And that’s what I want to see happen. So I’m looking forward to that and getting that license, going on a trip, a honeymoon, and relaxing and not having to think about the media and Kim Davis for a while.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we want to thank you all for being with us, David Moore and Chris Hartman, speaking to us from Lexington. Chris Hartman, director of the Fairness Campaign. And from Louisville, attorney Joe Dunman.
When we come back from break, will a torturer be brought to justice? That’s the question that a Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, is asking, because it was Maher Arar who was tortured, sent by the United States to Syria in 2002, where he was held for almost a year. We’ll speak with his wife in Ottawa. Stay with us.
Guatemalan President Resigns in "Huge Victory" for Popular UprisingAfter a massive public uprising, Guatemalan President Otto Pérez Molina has resigned. His resignation came just hours after a judge approved the attorney general's arrest ... Read More →
Guatemalan President Resigns in "Huge Victory" for Popular UprisingAfter a massive public uprising, Guatemalan President Otto Pérez Molina has resigned. His resignation came just hours after a judge approved the attorney general’s arrest warrant for him. This follows the Guatemalan Legislature’s unanimous decision to strip him of immunity from prosecution, bowing to popular pressure. Prosecutors said Pérez Molina will be charged with illicit association, taking bribes and customs fraud. Attorney General Thelma Aldana said Pérez Molina was also being investigated for money laundering, which could lead to the freezing of his assets. Otto Pérez Molina’s former vice president and other government officials are facing similar charges. We speak to George Polk Award-winning journalist Allan Nairn in Guatemala City.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: After a massive public uprising, Guatemalan President Otto Pérez Molina has resigned. His resignation came just hours after a judge approved the attorney general’s arrest warrant for him. This follows Congress’s surprising unanimous decision to strip him of immunity from prosecution, bowing to public pressure. Prosecutors said Pérez Molina will be charged with illicit association, taking bribes and customs fraud. Attorney General Thelma Aldana said Pérez Molina was also being investigated for money laundering, which could lead to the freezing of his assets.
AMY GOODMAN: Otto Pérez Molina’s former vice president and other government officials are also facing similar charges. Just before the broadcast, Democracy Now! reached journalist Allan Nairn in Guatemala City.
ALLAN NAIRN: Last night, the attorney general issued an order of arrest for General Pérez Molina, the president, and a few hours later, Pérez Molina resigned, just before midnight. It’s quite possible now that, as a private citizen, Pérez Molina will be arrested sometime after dawn. This is another huge victory for the popular uprising in Guatemala. Pérez Molina, just a few weeks ago, seemed completely invulnerable. But now he may be going to prison, and he will be facing trial on corruption charges.
But this is just the beginning of the challenges for the popular movement, because stepping in to replace Pérez Molina will be Vice President Maldonado Aguirre. Maldonado Aguirre is the key figure who, as a member of the High Court of Guatemala, annulled the genocide verdict against General Ríos Montt. He did that at the demand of CACIF, the oligarchs of Guatemala. After the criminal court issued a guilty genocide verdict against Ríos Montt and sentenced him to 80 years, the oligarchs went on TV, had a press conference, and they demanded—they demanded in the name of their money—that the court annul this verdict. And Maldonado Aguirre, who at that time was a leader of the high Constitutional Court of Guatemala, complied. And he is now the vice president. He is now the man who will be stepping in to replace Pérez Molina. And in fact, Maldonado Aguirre began his political career with the MLN, a political party. The MLN was a partner of the CIA in the 1954 invasion of Guatemala, which overthrew the democratically elected government, put the army in power and began the reign of terror that is still reverberating today. The MLN described itself as "the party of organized violence," and they ran their own semi-public death squad. So now, this man, Maldonado Aguirre, is the acting president, and he will have that position until January.
This Sunday, there is a presidential election in Guatemala, and the slate of candidates is dominated by people who were backed by the old army generals who ran the massacres, drug-running syndicates, other organized crime and the CACIF oligarchs. Those being backed by those forces are the ones who are considered to have a chance to win, because they are the ones with the money. They’re the ones who have been dominating the media coverage and the advertising. And unless the election is postponed—and many, many people, including leading academics, leading lawyers and popular groups, have been calling for a postponement, so the electoral law can be rewritten to give a fair chance to actual real citizens, who are not backed by drug dealers or by killer generals, to get a chance to contest for office—but unless that election is postponed, one of those—one of the front people for those groups will be the newly elected president of Guatemala. So, if this movement is going to turn into one that wins real structural change, it’s only just beginning.
And even with Pérez Molina himself, there is a big issue. He’s now going to go to trial for corruption. But that’s really his minor crime. His main crime is mass murder. He was one of the implementers of the policy of slaughter in the Ixil highlands for which Ríos Montt was convicted of genocide. I met him at the time that he was doing this, and his soldiers described how they would go into villages and wipe out the civilians. But no charges have yet been brought against Pérez Molina for those crimes. However, they could be, because, under Guatemalan law, ordinary citizens can come forward and file criminal charges, as long as those charges are accepted by the Attorney General’s Office.
If there is going to be a serious legal process against Pérez Molina for the mass killings, it should include the—what in Guatemalan law is called the intellectual authors and the collaborators. And those would include the U.S. sponsors. Pérez Molina received backing from the U.S. military, and from U.S. intelligence when he later became head of G-2, the Guatemalan intelligence. So, if there’s a serious prosecution, it would have the option of calling U.S. officials, subpoenaing U.S. records and indicting U.S. officials for their role in the murders. And I would urge them to do that, because the law should be enforced impartially. And even though Pérez Molina was the man on the ground directing the killers, he had bosses and sponsors, and the Americans out of Washington were perhaps the most important.
AMY GOODMAN: George Polk Award-winning journalist Allan Nairn reporting from Guatemala City. He has covered Guatemala since the 1980s. You can follow him on Twitter at @AllanNairn14 for the latest news on the resignation of the president of Guatemala, Otto Pérez Molina.
This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we go to Louisville and Lexington, Kentucky, to cover the showdown—the county clerk, Kim Davis, who refuses to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. We’ll talk to the man, David Moore, who she refused to issue a marriage license to three times. Stay with us.
As Syrian Colonel Faces Charges in Maher Arar Torture Case, Will U.S. Ever Apologize?In a move to hold government officials accountable for torture, Canada has charged Syrian Colonel George Salloum with allegedly torturing Canadian engineer Maher ... Read More →
As Syrian Colonel Faces Charges in Maher Arar Torture Case, Will U.S. Ever Apologize?In a move to hold government officials accountable for torture, Canada has charged Syrian Colonel George Salloum with allegedly torturing Canadian engineer Maher Arar. In 2002, Arar was kidnapped by U.S. authorities during a layover at JFK Airport and then sent to his native Syria, where he was tortured and interrogated in a tiny underground cell. He was held for nearly a year. This is the first-ever criminal charge of torture brought by Canada against a foreign government official for acts committed abroad. Canada’s decision to pursue torture charges in Arar’s case may open the door to further such prosecutions, including of U.S. government officials. In 2007, Arar received a $10 million settlement from the Canadian government. The United States has yet to apologize to him. We speak with Maher Arar’s wife, Monia Mazigh, and Alex Neve, secretary general of Amnesty International Canada.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: In a move to hold government officials accountable for torture, Canada has charged Syrian Colonel George Salloum with allegedly torturing Canadian engineer Maher Arar. In 2002, Arar was kidnapped by U.S. authorities during a layover at JFK Airport and then sent to his native Syria, where he was tortured and interrogated in a tiny underground cell. He was held for nearly a year. This is the first-ever criminal charge of torture brought by Canada against a foreign government official for acts committed abroad. After the news was announced, Maher Arar’s wife, Monia Mazigh, read a statement from Maher, who has not spoken to the press in two years.
MONIA MAZIGH: This is by no means the end of the road. It is my hope that George Salloum will be found alive, arrested and extradited to Canada to face Canadian justice. The laying of this charge comes at a critical point in our history. Canada has lost much of its credibility within the last decade when it comes to supporting important human right causes. It is my hope that Canada gives high priority to eradicating torture and bringing who’s committed it to justice. Enhancing national security and protecting human rights can go hand in hand. Lastly, I would like to quote former U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who said, "Let us be clear: Torture can never be an instrument to fight terror, for torture is an instrument of terror." Merci. Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Monia Mazigh, speaking on behalf of her husband, Maher Arar. And we’ll be speaking with her in Ottawa in a minute. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police will now attempt to locate and extradite Maher’s alleged torturer, Colonel George Salloum. A Canada-wide warrant and Interpol notice have reportedly been issued for his arrest. Canada’s decision to pursue torture charges in Maher’s case may open the door to further such prosecutions, including of U.S. government officials.
In 2010, Maher Arar appeared on Democracy Now! and described what happened to him.
MAHER ARAR: It’s a long story, but I was basically stopped at JFK Airport, and I was told it was routine procedure. Eventually, a team of FBI and New York police showed up, and they started asking me questions, and they had always told me I was not a suspect. The questioning lasted for many, many hours on end, and eventually I was arrested. I was not told why. And I spent that night at the airport. I could not sleep. Next day they asked me to volunteer to go to Syria, and then I refused. I was taken to MDC [Metropolitan Detention Center], where I spent about 10 days, and they eventually secretly took me in the middle of the night and shipped me off to Syria like a parcel.
AMY GOODMAN: And what happened there?
MAHER ARAR: Through Jordan. Well, obviously, it was an expedited process. They didn’t allow me to talk to a judge, even though I insisted. They lied to my lawyer, whom my family hired. And they bypassed all the regular procedures. They basically did not care when I protested my—the fact that I may be tortured when I’m in Syria.
AMY GOODMAN: And tell us what happened to you—tell us what happened to you in Syria.
MAHER ARAR: Well, of course, they dumped me in Jordan, a country I have no connection to whatsoever. And it’s a known fact now that the Jordanians are cooperating fully with the war on terror. And hours later, they handed me over to the Syrians. And the interrogations started that same day. There was no physical violence the same day—threats and all kinds of verbal threats with electricity and the chair. They call it the German chair. But the beating started the following day, where they started beating me, with no advance warning whatsoever, with a cable, electrical cable. And the most intense beating was on the third day, where for some strange reason they wanted me to say that I’ve been to Afghanistan. At the end of the day, I lost all my strength, and I told them what they wanted to hear. So the beating did not stop, but it became much, much less intense. But I can tell in the eyes of the investigators, the Syrian investigators—I don’t even know if I can call them that; they’re torturers—that they were looking for something, that they wanted to please the Americans. But I can tell you, after two weeks of torture and harsh interrogation and humiliation, I can tell in their eyes that there was nothing there for them.
AMY GOODMAN: Maher Arar speaking to Democracy Now! in 2010. Well, in 2007, Maher Arar received a $10 million settlement from the Canadian government. The United States has yet to apologize for taking him from Kennedy Airport and rendering him to Syria, where he was tortured for close to a year.
For more, we go now to Ottawa, Canada, where we’re joined by two guests. Monia Mazigh is the wife of Maher Arar, the national coordinator, as well, of the International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group. And Alex Neve joins us, secretary general of Amnesty International Canada.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Monia, can you explain exactly how you found out who Maher’s torturer was?
MONIA MAZIGH: I found out the first time through Maher’s—when he came back, during our discussion—and we had many, many of them—you know, about how he was treated, how he was tortured, how he was kept there. And the name of George Salloum came as basically almost one of the very few, because he doesn’t know who were his—like, all of the name of the torturers. But George Salloum came out as one precise one.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And what was Maher’s reaction, Monia, when he heard that his alleged torturer, this George Salloum, was being charged?
MONIA MAZIGH: Well, I think his first reaction was—I mean, he knew that there was an investigation that started in 2005, after one of his lawyers advised him to ask for—you know, to have a complaint about that person in particular, or, you know, at least someone who tortured him in Syria. But that investigation was taking so much time, and Maher was not sure whether this is going to finalize with a concrete action, so he was very much surprised, almost believing that this cannot happen. But eventually it did.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Alex Neve, could you talk about the significance of Maher Arar’s alleged torturer being charged?
ALEX NEVE: Certainly. Well, I and many people, Maher and Monia, as well, have been using words like "historic" and "groundbreaking" and "unprecedented." And it truly is, on a number of fronts. I mean, first and foremost, it’s just hugely significant because of what it means for Maher and Monia and their family in terms of personal justice. But this is an astounding breakthrough in the bigger struggle to end torture. We know that torture continues, in the context of national security, certainly, and otherwise, because of impunity, because torturers get away with it. Well, finally, for the first time ever in Canadian history, Canadian legal provisions—which have existed since 1985, so these have been part of Canadian law for 30 years—have for the first time now been used to charge someone for torture that happened outside of Canada, the first time ever that a foreign government official has been charged for torture under Canadian law. And that’s an incredible advance in that effort to ensure that people don’t escape justice. And it also conveys that very strong message that torture has no role to play in cases where national security supposedly is the motive, that no matter what, torture is a crime. National security doesn’t excuse it or justify it. Torture is a crime, and those who carry it out should face justice.
AMY GOODMAN: So, at this point, you don’t know where Colonel George Salloum is, is that right? And the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are trying to help you find him. Now, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police also were deeply implicated in Maher Arar’s being taken, to begin with, is that right? So talk about those two issues, how you begin to find Colonel Salloum.
ALEX NEVE: Well, maybe I’ll do the first, and Monia may want to pick up on the second. Certainly, in terms of trying to find Colonel Salloum now, obviously, it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge anytime a police force is trying to find a foreign suspect. It’s doubly challenging when we’re dealing with a country like Syria, which of course has been ripped apart by devastating civil war for over four years now. Who knows if he’s still alive? Who knows if he’s in Syria, has left Syria? But the RCMP is determined to try to find him, and they have turned to Interpol. Something that’s known as a blue notice has been issued, which means that police forces around the world now are being asked to stay on the lookout for a Colonel George Salloum. And if they find him—and that could be when he crosses a border, when he arrives at an airport, when he gets pulled over somewhere for a traffic stop—if he comes to anyone’s attention, the RCMP will learn about it right away, and they’ll take action. How likely is it that that will actually mean that someday he’ll be in a Canadian courthouse? We can’t assign any kind of statistical probability to that, but stranger things have happened. And the RCMP will do everything they can to try to make it happen.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Monia, if you could respond to this issue of the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, being so deeply implicated in your husband’s detention and rendition to Syria, and yet they’re the ones who are looking for now his torturer? Can you explain the background here?
MONIA MAZIGH: Well, I think, yes, you’re right. Justice O’Connor, the judge who conducted the public inquiry into the action of the Canadian government after what happened to my husband, pointed out to the implication of the RCMP and several other agencies, Canadian agencies, sending erroneous information to the United States about my husband. But I think this investigation came because—it started more, I think, as a legal step, as a legal kind of normal thing to do. And at that time, there was a big break into the confidence and relationship between my husband and the RCMP, so—but my husband decided to go with that investigation, to cooperate, to give them whatever information can be helpful. We were not sure whether this is going to take us anywhere. And the fact that it took 10 years tell you, can tell whoever is hearing or listening about this case, is that it’s not an easy one. It is complex investigation, but also there are things happening that we are not aware of, and maybe that made the work of the RCMP more difficult and lengthy.
I don’t think—you know, we cannot today—looking more than 10 years after what happened to my husband, we cannot say, while, you know, the RCMP is the culprit, we are not going to talk to them. I think lives move on. And what is important to remember is that, yes, they did something wrong, and now there is this investigation, which is something very positive. What we really need here is more accountability, in general. I think Canada lacks that accountability when it comes to its national security agencies. We are almost—it’s nonexistent. And if that case or if this new announcement tell us something, it’s we cannot really rely on one particular complaint or one investigation to get justice. We really need to change the system, put more accountability, more oversight, to be able to say that will not happen again to Maher Arar, but also to any other Canadian here in Canada who has been going through this hell.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Alex Neve, you suggested earlier that this was a historic case, the charging of George Salloum. But some have said that it’s largely a symbolic act, given the fact, as you also said, that he’s Syrian, he’s maybe in Syria, which is—at the best of times, as you pointed out, it’s very hard to find foreign suspects, trace them, on top of which Syria is engulfed in a civil war. Do you think there’s any likelihood that some of the people who were involved in Maher Arar’s rendition and torture closer to home, in Canada or here in the United States, are likely to face any consequences?
ALEX NEVE: Well, I think that’s one of the big questions that people have been talking about since the charges were announced, that this is—that this is tremendously important, and obviously, as Monia began in talking about how central George Salloum was to the torture and horrific abuses Maher experienced, it’s absolutely vital that he’s going to face some accountability, but there’s so much more. There’s obviously others in Syria, including at higher levels above Colonel Salloum. There’s certainly U.S. officials. After all, they’re the ones who handed him over to Colonel Salloum and his fellow criminals to carry out the torture that was conducted.
And even though we’ve had the accountability that came through the public inquiry into Maher Arar’s case here in Canada, there’s never been any personal accountability, whether that’s criminal—who knows whether there’s criminal accountability?—but even disciplinary accountability for RCMP and other officials who played a role in getting everything rolling in the first place. It was bad information. It was inflammatory accusations that began in Canada, that were passed on to the Americans, that then ended up making it possible, at the end of the day, for Colonel Salloum to torture Maher Arar.
So this can’t be the end. Certainly, we and others will be pressing the RCMP to continue, that what we need to view this is as a door that was long shut. A door that is a doorway to justice and accountability has finally been opened. And we now need to not just stand at that doorway and look in; we need to walk through the doorway and ensure that this becomes a much more wide-ranging exercise.
AMY GOODMAN: Monia, the Canadian government awarded your family $10 million in a settlement. Has the U.S. government ever apologized for originally taking Maher at the airport, at JFK? And is he—does he remain on a terrorist watch list in the United States? Could he—could you all fly back into the United States?
MONIA MAZIGH: No. No, actually. Both questions, no. The United States never apologized. I think what was closer, the closest thing that we heard, I remember that was Condoleezza Rice at some point, she said something like that file would have been handled somehow different or something. That was the closest thing to apology, if we can call that, or to admission of wrongdoing. My husband tried the legal routes in the United States, and then, unfortunately, I think in 2008, if I’m not mistaken, his case was dismissed by the Supreme Court in the United States. And they pointed out to the political level, so I think—which is, I agree. I mean, the decision is political. The war on terror is political. And unfortunately, the court did not and could not have the courage, and, I think, enough courage to go ahead and admit that the system of rendition is wrong and illegal.
When it comes to—I think you asked whether he is on a terrorist watch list or—I don’t know for sure if his name still exists there. And the reason is that he doesn’t travel to the United States. Immediately after he came back, I mean, he knew that he was banned to go to the United States, and that banning was renewed again, I think, after five years. So, I don’t want to—I don’t want him to try, because I don’t think this is really worth doing. It’s about his health. It’s about his life. And it is unfortunate now that, you know, he cannot travel, period. Not because he knows or he has confirmed information, it’s just because of the fear that one day this can be repeated all over him. So, it’s not a joke or, you know, just a speculation or something to take very simplistic. It’s a trauma, the whole trauma that is attached to my husband. No matter what are the compensation, no matter what, you know, the apology, his name has been out there associated with terrorism. And with today’s all what’s going on in the world about terrorism, national security, scrutiny of passengers, everything, it’s simply impossible to go back and travel.
AMY GOODMAN: And yet he has been completely cleared by the Canadian government.
MONIA MAZIGH: Absolutely.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there. I thank you so much, both of you, for being with us from Ottawa, Monia Mazigh, the wife of Maher Arar, and Alex Neve, the head of Amnesty International Canada.Headlines:
Guatemalan President Resigns After Mass Public Uprising
After a massive public uprising, Guatemalan President Otto Pérez Molina has resigned. His resignation came just hours after a judge approved the attorney general’s arrest warrant for him. This follows Congress’s surprising unanimous decision to strip him of immunity from prosecution, bowing to popular pressure. Prosecutors said Pérez Molina will be charged with illicit association, taking bribes and customs fraud. He is also being investigated for money laundering. We’ll have more on Guatemala after headlines.
Iran Nuclear Deal Secured After 34th Senator Voices Support
The Obama administration has secured enough votes to ensure the future of the nuclear deal with Iran. On Wednesday, Maryland Senator Barbara Mikulski became the 34th senator to support the agreement. That means even if opponents in Congress pass a resolution to undermine the nuclear deal, Obama has enough votes to sustain his veto and uphold the Iran agreement. The victory comes nearly two months after Iran, the United States and five other world powers reached the historic deal to curb Iran’s nuclear activities.
Judge Upholds Charges Against 6 Officers in Freddie Gray Death
In Maryland, a judge has ruled six Baltimore police officers will face separate trials for the arrest and death of African-American resident Freddie Gray. At a hearing Wednesday, Judge Barry Williams refused defense attempts to dismiss the charges and remove prosecutor Marilyn Mosby from the case. Freddie Gray died in April after being arrested and transported without a seat belt in a police van. His family said his spine was 80 percent severed at the neck. Police said they arrested him for making eye contact with them, then running away. Another hearing in the case is set for next week on a motion to move the officers’ trials out of Baltimore. Attorney J. Wyndal Gordon, who observed the proceedings, said the case should be heard in Baltimore.
J. Wyndal Gordon: "I think that the ladies and gentlemen of Baltimore city, the citizens of Baltimore city, are intelligent enough — not even intelligent enough, are intelligent. They are thoughtful. They are very attentive when it comes to cases such as this, and they can handle this case, provide each and every defendant a fair trial, provide the State’s Attorney’s Office with a fair trial."
Activist Arrested at Freddie Gray Protest in Baltimore
Peaceful protests against Freddie Gray’s death erupted in Baltimore Wednesday as the hearing was underway. Community activist and hip-hop artist Kwame Rose was arrested. Video footage shows him on the ground, screaming that he has been been hit by a car and is hurt, as police pull his arms back and arrest him.
Kwame Rose: "I’m not resisting! I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I got hit by a car!"
Somalia: Al-Shabab Says It Killed 70 AU Soldiers in Attack
In Somalia, the militant group al-Shabab says it has killed up to 70 African Union soldiers after it attacked a base in southern Somalia on Tuesday. Uganda confirms 12 of its soldiers died in the attack.
Yemen: At Least 28 Killed in 2 Suicide Bombings in Sana’a
In Yemen, at least 28 people have died after two suicide bombs exploded at a mosque in the capital Sana’a on Wednesday. The first bombing struck inside the mosque during prayers. The second blast came from a suicide car bomb that detonated about 20 minutes later as people were helping victims of the first attack. Members of the self-proclaimed Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack on social media.
Family of Drowned Syrian Boy Had Been Denied Asylum by Canada
In the latest from the global migration crisis, the photos of the lifeless body of a Syrian boy who washed up on a Turkish beach after his boat sank in the Mediterranean have gone viral. Three-year-old Aylan Kurdi, his five-year-old brother Galip and their mother, Rehan, drowned Tuesday as the family attempted to reach Greece in an eventual bid to join relatives in Canada where their asylum application had been denied. The boy’s aunt, Teema Kurdim, who is a hairdresser in Vancouver, told the National Post, "I was trying to sponsor them, and I have my friends and my neighbors who helped me with the bank deposits, but we couldn’t get them out, and that is why they went in the boat." Canada has come under intense criticism for not accepting more Syrians fleeing the Syrian civil war. In January, Immigration Minister Chris Alexander pledged Canada would resettle 10,000 Syrians over three years. But new government figures show that, as of late July, Canada had welcomed only 1,002 Syrians.
13 Dead After Migrant Boat Capsizes Near Malaysia
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Trump: Jeb Bush Should Speak English While in the U.S.
In news from the campaign trail, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has criticized rival Jeb Bush, saying Bush should "set the example by speaking English while in the United States." Trump’s attack comes after Bush held a press conference in Miami on Tuesday in which he spoke in both English and Spanish and criticized Trump, saying he is "not a conservative."
Canada Charges Syrian Colonel over Torture of Maher Arar Canada has charged Syrian Colonel George Salloum with allegedly torturing Canadian engineer Maher Arar. In 2002, Arar was rendered by the United States to an overseas detention center in his native Syria, where he was tortured and interrogated in a tiny underground cell for nearly a year. This is the first-ever criminal charge of torture brought by Canada against a foreign government official for acts committed abroad. We’ll have more on the case later in the broadcast.
Kentucky: Clerk Faces Court for Denying Same-Sex Marriage Licenses In Kentucky, the county clerk who has defied the Supreme Court and refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples is set to appear before a federal judge today to make her case for why she shouldn’t be held in contempt of court. Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis stopped issuing all marriage licenses rather than comply with the Supreme Court ruling in June that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. In a filing Wednesday, attorneys for Davis argued a court order requiring her to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples "irreparably and irreversibly violates her conscience." We’ll have more on the case later in the broadcast.
Texas: Judge Withdraws Execution Date for Prisoner Who Lacks Lawyer And a federal judge in Texas has issued an unusual order to withdraw the execution date for a man set to die by lethal injection later this month. District Judge David Mendoza ruled Tuesday that Perry Williams should not be put to death on September 29 without a lawyer to handle his appeals. Williams has been without a lawyer since early February. Democracy Now! correspondent Renée Feltz spoke to Williams Wednesday during an interview on death row.
Perry Williams: "I feel like I should have legal representation, no matter what. But that’s not how it is. So, basically, we’ve been writing letters, asking people to get on my case. It’s kind of hard, being that it’s this late in the stage. And it’s just I feel like it’s an injustice not to have an attorney when my life is on the line."
Williams was sentenced to death in 2002 for the murder and robbery of a medical student in Houston. Williams says his gun went off by accident and that his court-appointed lawyer failed to raise evidence that might have spared him a death sentence. Advocates say several more men on death row in Texas are also facing execution without lawyers.
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"California Prisoners' Strike a Win Against Solitary Confinement" by Amy Goodman and Denis Moynihan
Pelican Bay State Prison. (California Department of Corrections / Wikimedia Commons)
Thousands of prisoners will be moved out of solitary confinement in California, thanks to a landmark legal settlement announced this week. Grass-roots organizing can be tough, but when done by prisoners locked up in solitary confinement, some of them for decades, it is astounding. The settlement grew out of a federal class-action lawsuit alleging violations of the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.
They call themselves the Pelican Bay SHU Short Corridor Collective. This group of men has been subjected to long-term solitary confinement, some for more than 20 years, in California’s Pelican Bay State Prison, located in the far northern corner of the state. From within their small, windowless cells, they began talking, organizing. In July 2011, they launched a hunger strike in protest of conditions in the “SHU” (pronounced “shoe”), the Security Housing Unit, Pelican Bay’s solitary-confinement facility. More than 1,000 SHU prisoners joined in. They issued five demands, and after three weeks, officials offered what the hunger strikers considered a good-faith pledge to review policies in the SHU. Months later, after no action was taken, they went on a hunger strike again. This time, more than 12,000 prisoners joined in, across California and even in other states.
The Center for Constitutional Rights, a public-interest law firm with a focus on human rights, filed suit on behalf of all prisoners in California’s prison system who had been accused of gang affiliation and, thus, sent to the SHU. As the lawsuit wended its way through the legal system, a third hunger strike was initiated, in July 2013. More than 60,000 prisoners took part. A movement was growing.Outside, family members had been showing support, forming the group California Families Against Solitary Confinement. Dolores Canales’ son, John Martinez, had been in solitary for more than 14 years. He has participated in all three hunger strikes. “He’s written me, saying that he has no doubt in his mind that Pelican Bay Security Housing Unit was designed solely to drive men mad or to suicide,” Canales told us after the settlement was announced this week. “I didn’t even realize the circumstances of solitary confinement, the depth of the isolation.”
When asked how the families organized, she reflected: “I wouldn’t even be here at this moment if it were not for the hundreds of family members that have come out ... every hunger strike that they had was during the summer—July, August and September—you know, these warm months. Yet family members would be outside every other day dressed in orange jumpsuits, carrying chains or handcuffs or bullhorns, to draw attention of society, conducting numerous panels at universities and churches, and just organizing and mobilizing across the state of California, raising awareness to these conditions that our loved ones were enduring.”
Prisoner Todd Ashker is one of the Pelican Bay SHU Short Corridor Collective organizers. Since he gets no phone calls, access to his voice is difficult. In one recording from the time of the hunger strikes, obtained by the “Democracy Now!” news hour, Ashker, who is the named plaintiff in the case that led to the settlement, said: “Most of us have never been found guilty of ever committing an illegal gang-related act. But we’re in SHU because of a label. And all of our appeals, numerous court challenges, have gotten nowhere. Therefore, our backs are up against the wall.” In one deposition, Ashker described how prison officials bolted plexiglass to the front wall of the SHU cells to inhibit the collective’s ability to speak to one another, in retaliation for their organizing.
Prolonged solitary confinement is torture. The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture, Juan Mendez, reported in 2011: “Segregation, isolation, separation, cellular, lockdown, Supermax, the hole, Secure Housing Unit ... whatever the name, solitary confinement should be banned by States as a punishment.”
“Solitary confinement,” says Jules Lobel, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights and the lead attorney in the case, “makes [prisoners] very angry, frustrated, hopeless, which all of our guys have experienced ... it creates what social scientists call a social death. People lose their ability to relate to ... people in the normal world.”
It’s not only prisoners and their families opposed to solitary. One day after the settlement was reached, the Association of State Correctional Administrators released a statement that read in part: “Prolonged isolation of individuals in jails and prisons is a grave problem in the United States. The insistence on change comes not only from legislators across the political spectrum, judges, and a host of private sector voices, but also from the directors of correctional systems at both state and federal levels ... it’s the right thing to do.”
Amy Goodman is the host of “Democracy Now!,” a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on more than 1,300 stations. She is the co-author, with Denis Moynihan, of “The Silenced Majority,” a New York Times best-seller.
(c) 2015 Amy Goodman
Distributed by King Features Syndicate
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