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We are on the road in the historic city of Vienna, Austria, not far from the Czech Republic where President Obama gave a major address in 2009 that called for a nuclear-free world. His disarmament efforts were cited when he won the Nobel Peace Prize, but since then advocates say little progress has been made. A recent New York Times investigation found the United States is on pace to spend as much as $1 trillion over the next three decades to modernize its nuclear arsenal and facilities. This week, more than 150 countries at the United Nations signed a joint statement calling on nuclear powers to attend the third major conference on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons scheduled this December in Vienna. The United States has yet to attend one of the meetings. We are joined by Elena Sokova, executive director of the Vienna Center for Disarmament and Non-Proliferation.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re on the road broadcasting from the studios of Okto Community Television here in the historic city of Vienna, capital of Austria, in the heart of Europe. It was five years ago that President Obama was in the neighboring country, the Czech Republic, for a major address in Prague where he called for a world free from nuclear weapons.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: So today, I state clearly and with conviction America’s commitment to seek the peace and security of a world without nuclear weapons. First, the United States will take concrete steps towards a world without nuclear weapons. To put an end to Cold War thinking, we will reduce the role of nuclear weapons in our national security strategy and urge others to do the same. Make no mistake: As long as these weapons exist, the United States will maintain a safe, secure and effective arsenal to deter any adversary and guarantee that defense to our allies, including the Czech Republic. But we will begin the work of reducing our arsenal. To reduce our warheads and stockpiles, we will negotiate a new strategic arms reduction treaty with the Russians this year. To achieve a global ban on nuclear testing, my administration will immediately and aggressively pursue U.S. ratification of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. After more than five decades of talks, it is time for the testing of nuclear weapons to finally be banned.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, that was April 2009. Later that year, President Obama’s disarmament efforts were cited when he won the Nobel Peace Prize. Since then, the United States has failed to meet its nuclear promises. In fact, a recent New York Times investigation found the United States is on pace to spend as much as $1 trillion over the next three decades to rebuild its nuclear arsenal and facilities. As of 2013, the Federation of American Scientists estimates Russia has about—a stockpile of about 8,000 nuclear warheads, while the U.S. has about 7,300.
Meanwhile, this week, more than 150 countries at the United Nations signed a Joint Statement on the Humanitarian Consequences of Nuclear Weapons—nearly 80 percent of the body’s member states. It cited the "catastrophic effects" of a nuclear weapon detonation, whether by accident or design, and said, quote, "The only way to guarantee that nuclear weapons will never be used again is through their total elimination." The statement also called on nuclear powers to attend the third Conference on the Humanitarian Impact of Nuclear Weapons scheduled this December here in Vienna, Austria. The United States has yet to attend one of the meetings.
Well, for more, we’re joined here in Vienna by Elena Sokova, executive director of the Vienna Center for Disarmament and Non-Proliferation.
Elena, we welcome you to Democracy Now!
ELENA SOKOVA: Thank you for inviting me.
AMY GOODMAN: There is not a tremendous amount of attention on nuclear weapons. You know, there’s a great deal of attention, for example, on the threat of ISIS in Syria and Iraq. But behind the scenes—I mean, this exposé in The New York Times was quite stunning, the difference between what President Obama was saying just next door here, in the Czech Republic, in 2009 about a nuclear-free world and what is actually happening.
ELENA SOKOVA: You’re right that the promises and the announcements made in 2009 in Prague really elevated hopes of people around the world that we’re seriously approaching and dealing with the nuclear weapons and their reductions. But the recent requests from Pentagon and Congress, that President Obama yet to decide upon, project the U.S. arsenal upgrades and modernizations into 40, 50 years from now. Is that the wrong message to send? If you’re going down the goal of Global Zero, elimination of weapons, you’re not spending one trillion of dollars into upgrading your nuclear arsenal. No one says that nuclear weapons should be completely abandoned and not kept safe and secure. But nevertheless, there are a number of these weapons that are completely obsolete: Military doesn’t like them; they have no real purpose. Some of them are, for example, nuclear bombs, gravity bombs, that used on—by heavy bombers as delivery systems. They haven’t been really factored into many of the even military scenarios.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain what "Global Zero" is.
ELENA SOKOVA: Global Zero is a goal of getting down to zero nuclear weapons. Of course, even president in his speech said that is a long road, and it’s a tedious road, and expected many bumps in this road. But if we are not working towards that goal, if we are not pushing, we are not agreeing on concrete steps to, first, reducing nuclear weapons significantly and then eliminating them, then how do we reach that Global Zero goal? And speaking here from Europe, some of these modernizations and upgrades really don’t make sense. Some of the—the only weapons that U.S. has outside of its border are in Europe. These are the same B-61 gravity bombs that are located in five countries in Europe, literally next door—Italy, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Turkey. It’s 180 bombs that have no, really, mission here in Europe or in the U.S.
AMY GOODMAN: In 2012, three peace activists infiltrated a U.S. nuclear facility that holds more than 400 tons of highly enriched uranium, enough to fuel more than 10,000 nuclear warheads. It was a house painter, a Vietnam vet and an 82-year-old nun who broke into the Y-12 nuclear facility in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and cut holes in the fence to paint peace slogans. And they also threw blood on the wall. This is Sister Megan Rice speaking about the action in an interview with The Tennessean.
SISTER MEGAN RICE: The appropriate thing was to bring the truth, express the truth, in a way that we could do as quickly as we could and as clearly and as starkly. So we used symbols. Then we also brought the sacred element or symbol of human blood, because so much blood has been shed or would be shed by any of the weapons that would be either refurbished or refined or continue to be built, and hopefully never to be used, but as a stark reminder.
AMY GOODMAN: Sister Megan Rice received a nearly three-year sentence for her actions, and the other two activists involved were sentenced to five years in prison. Their actions prompted the facility to shut down for two weeks and led to congressional hearings about vulnerability of nuclear material. Recent reports show the price tag for renovations to buildings that process uranium at the Oak Ridge facility in Tennessee has soared from $6.5 billion to $19 billion. Elena Sokova, what about these kind of actions and what they show?
ELENA SOKOVA: These actions and the fact that three activists could break into the so-called Fort Knox of the U.S., which houses highly enriched uranium, the material that goes into the nuclear weapons, demonstrates that there are risks and vulnerabilities. And the only way to eliminate these risks is to go down the road and eliminating the weapons and materials for them. And that is a bigger goal. And even if the U.S. has problems with securing some of these top-secret facilities housing them, what about the rest of the world?
AMY GOODMAN: I also want to turn Eric Schlosser, the author of Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety. During an interview on Democracy Now!, he described one of several nuclear "near misses" on American soil.
ERIC SCHLOSSER: One of the most significant near misses occurred just three days after John F. Kennedy was inaugurated. A B-52 bomber broke apart in the sky over North Carolina, and as it was breaking apart, the centrifugal forces affecting the plane pulled a lanyard in the cockpit, which released one of the hydrogen bombs that it was carrying. And the weapon behaved as though it had been released over the Soviet Union, over an enemy target deliberately. And it went through all of its arming stages, except one. And there was one switch that prevented it from detonating in North Carolina. And that switch later was found to be defective and would never be put into a plane today. Stray electricity in the bomber as it was disintegrating could have detonated the bomb.
AMY GOODMAN: Eric Schlosser also noted that in 2010, 50 U.S. nuclear missiles suddenly went offline and were unable to communicate with launch control centers for about an hour due to a computer malfunction. Elena Sokova, if you could comment?
ELENA SOKOVA: What Eric Schlosser described in his book are not the only cases when we almost had near uses or near misses, where nuclear weapons were almost launched because something else was mistaken for the incoming nuclear missiles. There is a recent study published by the Chatham House in London that describes additional cases. And what it demonstrates, that there are vulnerabilities, there are risks, and risk is more than zero, and how we can afford not dealing with this problem of nuclear weapons and the reduction and elimination, if this risk indeed exists. And it’s larger than we thought. All these cases that are now become public demonstrates that we didn’t know about it, and we were really fortunate not to have these incidents happen. Sometimes it’s just a human decision that said that "I cannot believe the data on the radar. I better not do a false alarm." But how we, as a humankind, we can rely always on these decisions?
That’s why the conferences that will be held in Vienna here in December, on December 8 and 9, on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons, it will look not only at what are the impacts, short- and long-term, of the weapons on health, on environment, on the food security, on the climate change. But most importantly, it will also look at what the risks are, how vulnerable we are, and how we can deal with that risk, and what if indeed a miscalculation happened or an accident happened, or even premeditated. We speak about nuclear terrorism and other problems. There is no adequate response that we can have. The International Red Cross conducted studies a couple of years ago where they say even a limited, a one nuclear weapon detonation would put severe stress on the whole response system, on medical personnel, on how do you even go and help the individuals who have been under radiation and burns suffering there, because you cannot even move in. Your infrastructure is shattered by the explosion, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, in the editorial in The New York Times that accompanied this big exposé on how President Obama, despite his promises in 2009 next door in Czech Republic, has now spent—invested tens of billions of dollars in rebuilding America’s nuclear arsenal, yet, they say, "after good progress in making nuclear bomb material more secure around the world, [Mr.] Obama has reduced his budget requests for that priority." The significance of this, both increasing the money that’s going into developing nuclear weapons, but then cutting back on securing the nuclear weapons around the world that we have?
ELENA SOKOVA: Well, I think the message is clear, that we really need to follow the priorities that we announced, and that the priorities identified in the Prague agenda were to deal with the elimination of nuclear weapons and risks. Securing nuclear materials is very important, and the funding need to be continued. There are more places in the world that we need still to clean up these materials, and we want to make sure that even the weapons that are remained are kept secure.
AMY GOODMAN: Is the U.S. attending the December conference?
ELENA SOKOVA: That, we don’t know yet. We really hope that they will, that the U.S. will attend—hopefully, other countries will do, as well—because U.S. probably one of the countries that know more than anyone else about the effects. It used their nuclear weapons, the only country that ever used their nuclear weapons. It has an, you know, abundance of data from the nuclear testing and could really contribute to the discussion. What the conference and this humanitarian approach is trying to do is to look at the issue of nuclear weapons not from the security, strategic security viewpoint that has been on the agenda for a long time; it looks at the issue from the humankind perspective of what are we dealing with, can we cope with this, what are the risks, and why don’t we turn table around and look at as an entire humankind, not only the countries that have nuclear weapons.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Elena Sokova, I want to thank you so much for being with us, executive director of the Vienna Center for Disarmament and Non-Proliferation right here in Vienna, Austria.
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. As negotiations around Iran and their nuclear facilities go on here in Vienna, one former U.N. weapons inspector, Robert Kelley, is raising questions about what Western officials are saying about Iran. Stay with us.
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As the movie "Citizenfour" about National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden opens in theaters in the United States, we look at the impact his leaks have had on the debate over online privacy in Europe. The Austrian newspaper Der Standard reports the NSA has accessed nearly 70 percent of telecommunications in Vienna, home to thousands of diplomats from around the world. Earlier this year, Germany ordered the removal of a top U.S. intelligence official in the country after leaks from Snowden showed the United States was monitoring the communications of millions of Germans and tapping Chancellor Angela Merkel’s cellphone. In a victory for digital privacy, the European Court of Justice struck down a rule that required telecommunication companies to store the communications data of European Union citizens for up to two years. The ruling happened on the same day Snowden addressed the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe from Moscow. We are joined by Andreas Krisch, president of European Digital Rights.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re on the road in Vienna, Austria, broadcasting from the studios of Okto TV. That’s Okto Community Television. As the movie Citizenfour about National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden opens in theaters today in the United States, we look at the impact of Snowden’s leaks on the debate over online privacy here in Europe.
The Austrian newspaper Der Standard reports that Vienna, which has a Cold War reputation as the spying capital of the world, may now be home to a major surveillance operation by the NSA. The paper cites documents released by Snowden that suggest the NSA tapped networks run by the company Telecom Austria and the University of Vienna in order to access nearly 70 percent of telecommunications in the Austrian capital, which is home to thousands of diplomats from around the world. Earlier this year, Germany ordered the [removal of a] top U.S. intelligence official in the country after leaks from Snowden showed the United States was monitoring the communications of millions of Germans and tapping Chancellor Angela Merkel’s cellphone. The German government also ended its contract with Verizon for cooperating with the NSA in spying on Germans.
Meanwhile, in a victory for digital privacy, in April, the European Court of Justice struck down a rule that required telecommunication companies to store the communications data of European Union citizens for up to two years. The ruling happened on the same day Edward Snowden addressed the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe via video link from Russia. This is a clip.
EDWARD SNOWDEN: Mass surveillance, where we place everybody under constant monitoring, where we watch communications, we watch what books you buy, we watch the purchases you make, we watch your travels, we watch your associations, we watch who you love, and we watch who you are, we watch you develop as a person—these are not the values of Western societies. These are not the values of liberal societies. And I do not believe that America, as a nation, or the West, as a culture, would allow them to continue.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Edward Snowden addressing the European Court of Justice in April—on the same day a court struck down a rule requiring telecommunication companies to store the communications data of European Union citizens for up to two years.
To talk more about online privacy rights in Europe after Snowden, we’re joined by Andreas Krisch, president of European Digital Rights.
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Andreas.
ANDREAS KRISCH: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: Talk about the whole issue today.
ANDREAS KRISCH: Well, we live in a world of mass surveillance. We have to understand that every piece of communication that we do—is it online, is it via telephone or whatever—is going to be stored and analyzed by somebody. It is, on the one hand, the U.S., the NSA, but also European intelligence agencies like the GCHQ in U.K. or the German BND and a lot of others. And this is something that we need to stop. This is something that we need to work to re-establish our fundamental rights to privacy and for secret communication. And the court case in Luxembourg on mandatory data retention of telecommunication data was one of the big victories we had recently on this quest.
AMY GOODMAN: What was that victory? And explain for laypeople, who may not even—who have trouble even, you know, on a computer or haven’t been on a computer.
ANDREAS KRISCH: Yeah. Well, basically, in 2006, the European Union introduced a law that required telecommunication providers—so, mobile phone providers, fixed-line phone providers, Internet service providers—to record every communication between people, so who is talking to whom, not the contents of the communication, but the fact—
AMY GOODMAN: The metadata.
ANDREAS KRISCH: —that person A is communicating with person B, and how long this lasts and so on. And this information, this metadata, had to be stored for up to two years, between six months and two years. And we fought that from the very beginning and have been quite unsuccessful for some years. But finally, when it was introduced in Austria, because every member state of the European Union has to transfer—to implement this piece of legislation into their own jurisdiction, and when this was done in Austria, we started a constitution court case on that. And together with 11,138 others, we made a complaint, and this was referred to the European Court of Justice, who then ruled that this is in violation of our fundamental rights that are enshrined in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, therefore the European piece of legislation was annulled. This is the first time in history that a European legislation was annulled entirely and not only in pieces. And following that, also the Austrian Constitutional Court ruled that the Austrian implementation of this law is invalid and is also in violation of fundamental rights of Austrian citizens.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the significance of Edward Snowden’s revelations and how they’ve impacted this debate? In the United States, President Obama has said—you know, well, of course, Edward Snowden has been charged and wanted in the United States to face charges, but he has said this discussion would be happening without Snowden. Is that true?
ANDREAS KRISCH: Well, I think that the main thing that Edward Snowden did to the world is to provide evidence on things that we were suspicious about previously that they might happen, and now we do know it. We do have the facts from the documents from the NSA, from the GCHQ and other organizations, and therefore we know what we are talking about, that every piece of communication is being monitored. And this is the thing that needs to be addressed, and I think there is no other way than to have a democratic debate about how much of surveillance we are able and willing to accept in our societies and how far we can do such things in democracies, because it goes to the heart of democracy, if you are no longer able to communicate freely to say what you think and do that without having the fear of being monitored and having this being held against you. And I think this is the important discussion that we need to lead, and this was started by Edward Snowden, and this is a huge thing that he did to the world and to the society, I think.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about the documents that were released around what’s happened here, the Austrian newspaper Der Standard reporting that Vienna, who has the reputation of being the spy capital of the world, may now be home to a major surveillance operation by the NSA, talking about tapping networks run by the company Telecom Austria and the University of Vienna, accessing what, some 70 percent of telecommunications in the Austrian capital?
ANDREAS KRISCH: Well, there is no fixed proof of that, as far as I know, but we do have the suspicion, and it is clear from the NSA documents that Austria plays a major role in this network of surveillance. Austria is named the [inaudible] partner of the U.S. in these operations, and so we do know that there is something going on. And I think the main question is: What is the role of Austrian companies in this, and also what is the role of U.S. companies in this? Because networks are not only provided by Austrian companies, but there are also companies from third countries involved in networking, and so we need to see what their role is and if there is maybe a leak.
AMY GOODMAN: What message do you have, as president of European Digital Rights, to people in the United States around this debate?
ANDREAS KRISCH: I think what we need to do globally—in the U.S. and in Europe and elsewhere—is to stand up for our rights, our rights to privacy, our fundamental rights of freedom of communication, freedom of expression. And I think that we need an informed debate about what intelligence agencies are doing now and where the limits to their activities are. And we need to be very clear about that. And as far as the relation between the European Union and the U.S. is concerned, I think that we first need to agree that fundamental rights, as they are recognized in the European Union in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, need to be accepted and agreed on by the U.S. before we can talk about any exchange of data and about any replacements or improvements of the Safe Harbor agreement that covers data protection in data transfers between the EU and U.S. So, there is a lot of work ahead, and there is really a massive problem with trust in the relationships now.
AMY GOODMAN: Andreas Krisch, I want to thank you for being with us, president of European Digital Rights, obviously a discussion we will continue.
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We are broadcasting from Vienna, where the six world powers leading nuclear negotiations with Iran have set a November deadline to reach a deal to constrain Iran’s nuclear program in exchange for easing Western sanctions. Earlier this month, a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency found Iran is meeting its commitments under a temporary deal. But Western diplomats say Iran has refused to provide information about alleged experiments on high explosives intended to produce a nuclear weapon. Information on the experiments is reportedly contained in an intelligence document the IAEA is investigating, but the document itself remains unverified, and at least one member of the IAEA community has raised concerns about its authenticity. Our guest, Robert Kelley, was part of the IAEA’s Iraq Action Team in 2003 and says he is speaking out now because "I learned firsthand how withholding the facts can lead to bloodshed." Prior to his time in Iraq, Kelley was a nuclear weapons analyst based at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. We’re broadcasting from Vienna, Austria, where the six world powers leading nuclear negotiations with Iran have set a November deadline to reach a deal to constrain Iran’s nuclear program in exchange for easing Western sanctions. The countries, known as the P5+1, have put forward a number of ideas that recognize, quote, "Tehran’s expressed desire for a viable civilian nuclear program and that take into account that country’s scientific knowhow and economic needs," unquote. The Obama administration has reportedly begun promoting a possible nuclear agreement with Iran to its allies and U.S. policymakers in an effort to garner support ahead of next month’s deadline. On Wednesday, Secretary of State John Kerry told reporters that the Obama administration plans to fully consult Congress about ongoing negotiations with Iran.
SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY: We are completely engaged in a regular series of briefings. I’ve been talking, even during the break, to senators about our thoughts with respect to the Iran negotiations, and I personally believe, as does the president, that Congress has an extremely important role to play in this, and Congress will play a role in this.
AMY GOODMAN: Last week, Secretary of State John Kerry and his Iranian counterpart, Mohammad Javad Zarif, held six hours of talks here in Vienna in a bid to break an impasse in the talks. U.S. and Iranian diplomats are reportedly still negotiating the future size of Tehran’s nuclear fuel production capacity as well as the pace of the potential lifting of Western sanctions in the case of an agreement.
According to Reuters, a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency, the IAEA, earlier this month makes clear Iran is meeting its commitments under the temporary deal. But Western diplomats say Iran has refused to provide information about alleged experiments on high explosives intended to produce a nuclear weapon. Information on the experiments is reportedly contained in an intelligence document the IAEA is investigating, but the document itself remains unverified, and at least one member of the IAEA community has raised concerns about its authenticity. He’s Robert Kelley. He writes, quote, "I am speaking up about this now because, as a member of the IAEA’s Iraq Action Team in 2003, I learned firsthand how withholding the facts can lead to bloodshed." Kelley was previously based at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. He’s now an associate senior research fellow at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, or SIPRI. Robert Kelley joins us here in Vienna, Austria.
Welcome to Democracy Now!
ROBERT KELLEY: Thank you, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. So, talk about what’s being alleged right now. And you’re certainly someone who knows about allegations, having been—well, we use the term loosely—U.N. weapons inspector, but one of those people who, for the United Nations, went into Iraq before the U.S. invaded to investigate whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
ROBERT KELLEY: Well, remember, please, that I was in Iraq in 1991, as well, following up on the first war, when we had some very cooperative activities with the U.S. and with other agencies in Europe. So it goes back a long ways. And what I see is that in 1995 people tried to derail the work IAEA was doing in Iraq by producing forged documents. And they were extremely good forgeries. They spent a lot of time trying to make them look like real Iraqi documents, the problem being that they were forgeries. And at that time, the action team went to Iraq and, with the Iraqis’ help, pointed out what the problems were. When I look at the documents that were being discussed now, both IAEA’s weapons report and the leaks that have come out, they look just the same. It looks like the same pattern of forgeries. Furthermore, in 2002, we were given forgeries on aluminum tubes—well, we were given bad information on aluminum tubes, shoddy analysis, forged documents that supposedly came from Niger. It all proved not to be true. So before we jump off the cliff again, I think we ought to know if this stuff is genuine.
AMY GOODMAN: You wrote a piece in 2012 for Bloomberg—
ROBERT KELLEY: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: —headlined "Nuclear Arms Charge Against Iran is No Slam Dunk." So, are you seeing a pattern here?
ROBERT KELLEY: Yeah. So, there’s certainly a pattern in bad information being provided, and it’s coming from a few sources, though one really thing that bothers me at this point is that in 2002 it was the U.S. that was cheerleading to start a war, and this time around the IAEA has signed on and they’re part of this innuendo and sloppy information that looks like they are also advocating for war.
AMY GOODMAN: Going back to 2002, 2003, how was pressure applied directly to you—what you were seeing on the ground in Iraq and then what was being told to the American people?
ROBERT KELLEY: Well, there was no connection between what we were seeing, because we were told from the U.S. mission, the people that we dealt with, that they really didn’t want to hear what we had to say. And it was clear to us, as we carried out the inspections from November until March, 2002 to 2003, that nobody was listening. We were going around and saying, "We’ve solved the problem with the aluminum tubes: They’re for rockets." We find these forgeries of Iranian documents. And no one was listening. So, what I saw being presented to the American people by, say, Colin Powell’s speech to the U.N., it was completely at odds with the truth.
AMY GOODMAN: Did Bush administration officials come to the IAEA?
ROBERT KELLEY: Not that I’m aware of. In my position, I wouldn’t have ever dealt with Bush administration officials. But lower-level people came a few times. And, for example, in the area of the aluminum tubes, we had lots of experts who said, "These are not for gas centrifuges, nothing to do with nuclear. These are small rockets." And the person that they sent said, "Well, if you knew what I knew, then you’d know I’m right." And we got a lot of that kind of attitude from people who didn’t know what they were taking about.
AMY GOODMAN: So, now it’s, well, more than 10 years later.
ROBERT KELLEY: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain exactly what you see happening here in Vienna, the significance of these talks.
ROBERT KELLEY: Ah, well, I—
AMY GOODMAN: And what’s being represented.
ROBERT KELLEY: Well, I think there are two things going on. The talks that are going on between Kerry, the P5+1 and Iran primarily concern the enrichment of uranium. And this is a case where the IAEA is on very solid ground. They know exactly what they’re doing. They are monitoring the facilities that are producing uranium. And I think they have an excellent handle on it. It’s what they do well. If you look at the agreement that’s going to be talked about, the weaponization is not even in that agreement. So, when people say that IAEA—I’m sorry, that Iran is not being forthcoming in discussing what they’re doing on weaponization, it’s not part of the agreement. So, those people are very poorly informed. And we see that all the time.
AMY GOODMAN: What would be accomplished by misrepresenting what’s happening in Iran right now around nuclear—development of nuclear weapons?
ROBERT KELLEY: Well, there are people who believe that Iran is a threat to the entire region, and any evidence they can develop against them is for that purpose. But I think if you’re coming back to nuclear weapons, are they actually developing nuclear weapons? It’s hard to say.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to Seymour Hersh—
ROBERT KELLEY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: —the investigative reporter who’s very well known. Seymour Hersh is—has often done reports on what’s happening in Iran. We’re going to turn right now to this Seymour Hersh clip, talking to Democracy Now!
SEYMOUR HERSH: It’s some sort of a fantasy land being built up here, as it was with Iraq, the same sort of—no lessons learned, obviously. Look, I have been reporting about Iran, and I could tell you that since '04, under George Bush, and particularly the vice president, Mr. Cheney, we were—Cheney was particularly concerned there were secret facilities for building a weapon, which are much different than the enrichment. We have enrichment in Iran. They've acknowledged it. They have inspectors there. There are cameras there, etc. This is all—Iran’s a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty. Nobody is accusing them of any cheating. In fact, the latest report that everybody’s so agog about also says that, once again, we find no evidence that Iran has diverted any uranium that it’s enriching. And it’s also enriching essentially at very low levels for peaceful purposes, so they say, 3.8 percent. And so, there is a small percentage being enriched to 20 percent for medical use, but that’s quite small, also under cameras, under inspection.
What you have is, in those days, in '04, ’05, ’06, ’07, even until the end of their term in office, Cheney kept on having the Joint Special Operations force Command, JSOC—they would send teams inside Iran. They would work with various dissident groups—the Azeris, the Kurds, even Jundallah, which is a very fanatic Sunni opposition group—and they would do everything they could to try and find evidence of an undeclared underground facility. We monitored everything. We have incredible surveillance. In those days, what we did then, we can even do better now. And some of the stuff is very technical, very classified, but I can tell you, there's not much you can do in Iran right now without us finding out something about it. They found nothing. Nothing. No evidence of any weaponization. In other words, no evidence of a facility to build the bomb. They have facilities to enrich, but not separate facilities for building a bomb. This is simply a fact.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Seymour Hersh in 2011, the Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist at The New Yorker magazine, who had just written this blog post for the New Yorker website called "Iran and the I.A.E.A." laying out his findings. Robert Kelley, your response?
ROBERT KELLEY: Well, Seymour Hersh is great. He finds things that no one else finds. He does great analysis. He has great sources. And as I look at this rather long statement, I think you can boil it down to two things. One is that the IAEA is on top of the enrichment issue. And so, the question that’s really going on in Vienna in the next few weeks is: How much uranium will they be allowed to make? And IAEA is not even at the table, because everybody assumes they can do their job. And they will. They’re very good at that.
But the second part is about finding facilities to build bombs and things like that. IAEA is not capable of that. You need an intelligence network to do that. You need good analysts to do that. And we haven’t seen any sign, at this point, that IAEA’s work is up to snuff. That’s a separate agreement, and it should just be thrown in the trash.
AMY GOODMAN: You are from the United States. What do you see is the politics of the United States, though you live here in Vienna, the politics of the U.S. right now in their interests around Iran? Who is pushing Iran policy? Which countries?
ROBERT KELLEY: Oh, I find that hard. I think, in the case of the U.S., you have this multi-headed Hydra, that maybe the administration wants to do one thing, but the Congress wants to do another. I don’t know who’s pushing the politics, because it’s so opaque. It’s the same thing in Iran itself. Who is on the receiving end of the U.S. overtures? Is it the Rouhani people? Or is it the Khameneis? Who is it? So, I think you’re not really sure in these cases how many people are talking to how many other people and where the connections are.
AMY GOODMAN: And how important are these negotiations right now, what’s known as the P5+1?
ROBERT KELLEY: P5+1 on the uranium is very important, because it will establish what Iran is allowed to do in the view of the rest of the world. If they agree that they’re limited to those things and they say they have the right to peaceful nuclear energy, then I think you’ll have a very important agreement on uranium enrichment and also this reactor that they’re building, that’s not too important. But on the weaponization, the talks don’t concern that. And people who say that the talks include that are wrong, and they’re muddying the waters, probably to try to derail the negotiations.
AMY GOODMAN: What would you say to the U.S. Congress?
ROBERT KELLEY: I would say, "Go and get some good information." You know, you see many people speaking out—I don’t want to name them, but, you know, they say things like Iran is not cooperating. And Iran is cooperating fully in the area of nuclear materials. When the U.S. asks to go to a military base or to go to a factory that’s producing missiles, Iran says, "Wait a minute. You know, that’s not part of our agreement with you." And people are misconstruing that to say they’re not cooperating in nuclear. Simply not true.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Robert Kelley, as you look at what’s happening in Iraq today, 10 years—more than 10 years after the invasion—you were there at the beginning. You were there before. You were there on the ground. You now say that if your observations on the ground were heeded, we would have not seen the bloodshed that we did. What are your thoughts today?
ROBERT KELLEY: Oh, I feel very bad about what happened in 2003. It’s extremely embarrassing that the country ignored the people who were in Iraq making the observations and didn’t take us into account. And when the U.S. sent this team in, two months after the war or so, the leader of the team, after two months, quit. And his statement was: "We were all wrong. They had no weapons of mass destruction." Well, we weren’t all wrong. The people who were in the field were saying there’s nothing there. And then they left it to bureaucrats to twist that around and get it wrong.
AMY GOODMAN: Robert Kelley, associate senior research fellow at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, former director at the IAEA for the Iraq Action Team. Prior to that, he was based at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. When we come back here in Vienna, Austria, we’re going to look at the issue of privacy, especially raised by the revelations of Edward Snowden. Stay with us.
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New York City, Mali Report First Cases of Ebola
New York City has reported its first case of Ebola. Dr. Craig Spencer tested positive after returning last week from Guinea where he was treating Ebola patients with Doctors Without Borders. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio said Spencer is in isolation at Bellevue Hospital in Manhattan.
Bill de Blasio: "The patient in question is a doctor who has worked with Ebola patients in West Africa, and when his symptoms emerged, he was taken to Bellevue by specially trained emergency medical service workers who followed all transport protocols. The patient is now in isolation. The Health Department has a team of disease detectives who have been at work tracing all of the patient’s contacts, and we are prepared to quarantine contacts as necessary."
The West African country of Mali also reported its first case of Ebola on Thursday. The patient is a two-year-old girl who was brought from neighboring Guinea. Her father died of Ebola.
African Union Pledges 1,600 New Health Workers for Ebola
African countries are pledging to ramp up their response to the Ebola outbreak, which has officially killed nearly 5,000 people in West Africa, although the toll is likely much higher. The African Union said member states have promised to deploy more than 1,600 health workers.
Canada to Expand Surveillance, Detention Powers After Shooting
Canada is vowing to fast-track the expansion of surveillance and detention powers for authorities after a shooting in the capital Ottawa. Prime Minister Stephen Harper spoke before the House of Commons one day after a gunman killed a soldier and opened fire inside Parliament.
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper: "Last week our government proposed amendments to the legislation under which the Canadian intelligence — the Canadian Security Intelligence Service operates. And as you know, Mr. Speaker, in recent weeks I have been saying that our laws and police powers need to be strengthened in the area of surveillance, detention and arrest. They need to be much strengthened. And I assure you. Mr. Speaker, that work, which is already underway, will be expedited."
The shooting suspect, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, was shot dead inside Parliament by the sergeant-at-arms. Police say he was not on a watchlist of 90 high-risk travelers. He had applied for a passport and was being subjected to an "enhanced investigation" over his application, which police say may have "figured prominently" in his motive. Police are also investigating how he obtained a gun despite his criminal record. They say they have found no connection between Wednesday’s attack and a second one two days earlier where a man drove his car into two soldiers, killing one.
U.S. "Coordinating Very Closely" with Canada After Attacks
On Thursday, White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said the Obama administration is working closely with Canada in the wake of the attacks.
Josh Earnest: "President Obama yesterday offered Canada any assistance that’s necessary in responding to these attacks, and our respective national security teams are coordinating very closely, including again today. As the president said yesterday, when it comes to dealing with terrorist activity, it is clear that Canada and the United States have to be entirely in sync. We have been in the past, and we will continue to be in the future."
The shooting in Canada came one day after six Canadian fighter jets departed to join the U.S.-led war against the Islamic State in Iraq.
ISIS Claims Iraqi Village; Offensive by Iraqi Forces Could Take Months
Islamic State militants have seized a village in the western Iraqi province of Anbar after overcoming resistance from members of the Albu Nimr tribe. The militant group has also strengthened its assault on Yazidi minorities in northern Iraq, reportedly killing a Yazidi commander. U.S. officials say it could be months before Iraqi forces are able to launch a sustained offensive against the militants on the ground.
Judge Orders U.S. to Justify Withholding of Torture Photographs
A federal judge has ordered the Obama administration to outline in detail its reasons for concealing as many as 2,100 photographs showing the torture of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. In 2009, Obama agreed to release the photos, but later changed his mind, saying they would "inflame anti-American opinion and put our troops in danger." As part of a decade-long transparency case brought by the American Civil Liberties Union, the judge ordered the government to delineate, for each photograph, its reasons for keeping the images from the public. The photographs are reportedly more disturbing than the famous images of torture by U.S. forces at Abu Ghraib in Iraq.
Mexico: Guerrero Governor Resigns over Disappearance of 43 Students
In Mexico, the governor of the southern state of Guerrero, where 43 students disappeared following a police ambush, has resigned. Governor Ángel Aguirre Rivero is from the same political party as the mayor of Iguala, who is accused of ordering the attack on the students. Aguirre has been a target of ongoing protests for allowing corruption to go unchecked.
U.S. Judge Considers U.N. Immunity in Haiti Cholera Case
An attorney for Haitians impacted by a deadly outbreak of cholera has asked a U.S. judge to let their lawsuit against the United Nations move forward. The outbreak in Haiti, which killed more than 8,500 people, has been traced to U.N. peacekeepers who responded to the 2010 earthquake. At Thursday’s hearing, an attorney from the Justice Department appeared in court to argue the United Nations is immune from such legal action. But Beatrice Lindstrom, attorney for the plaintiffs, said the United Nations should be held accountable.
Beatrice Lindstrom: "We argued today that the United Nations cannot enjoy immunity in this suit when the United Nations is responsible for the death of over 8,500 people and over 700,000 people who have been injured. And the United Nations has clear legal obligations under their own treaties to provide remedies for people who have been harmed by the United Nations, and that is uncontested by the U.N. itself."
Mumia Abu-Jamal Responds to New Pennsylvania Law Restricting Prisoners’ Speech
In Pennsylvania, Republican Gov. Tom Corbett has signed into law a bill critics say will trample the free speech rights of prisoners. Dubbed the "Mumia bill," the measure was introduced after imprisoned journalist and former Black Panther Mumia Abu-Jamal gave a pretaped commencement address at Vermont’s Goddard College. His speech was opposed by Pennsylvania officials and the widow of Daniel Faulkner, the police officer whom Abu-Jamal was convicted of killing. The law authorizes the censoring of public addresses of prisoners or former offenders if judges agree that allowing them to speak would cause "mental anguish" to the victim. Speaking to Democracy Now! from prison this week, Mumia Abu Jamal said that by signing the law, Governor Corbett had violated the Constitution.
Mumia Abu-Jamal: "As a governor and as an attorney and a member of the bar, he had to take a sworn oath for both offices, and that oath was to protect and defend the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the Constitution of the United States of America. By signing that bill into law, he has violated both of his oaths as governor and as an attorney."
The full interview with Mumia Abu-Jamal you can is posted on our website here.
Private Autopsy: Teen Shot by St. Louis Officer 8 Times, 6 from Behind
In news from Missouri, a private autopsy shows an 18-year-old killed by a police officer in St. Louis was shot eight times, six of them from behind. Attorneys for the family of Vonderrit Myers say the results suggest Myers was running away. Police say ballistic evidence shows Myers opened fire first. The officer, who has not been named, was off-duty and working for a private security company at the time of the shooting. His attorney said the bullet wounds in Myers’ legs occurred because Myers wound up lying on his side, with both his gun and his legs pointed at the officer. The death of Vonderrit Myers has fueled ongoing protests over the shooting of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson in nearby Ferguson.
Upstate New York: "We are Seneca Lake" Protests Target Expansion of Natural Gas Storage
In upstate New York, residents formed a human blockade at a natural gas facility Thursday to protest a planned expansion of natural gas storage in the Finger Lakes region. The Texas-based company Crestwood Midstream is due to begin construction today as part of a plan to expand storage of natural gas in underground salt caverns on the shores of Seneca Lake. The lake provides drinking water to 100,000 people. Protesters, including the biologist, author and cancer survivor Sandra Steingraber, say the plan poses major health and safety risks.
Sandra Steingraber: "Even though outstanding questions have been raised by scientists and the public alike about the inherent instability of these caverns and the possible fault lines and accidents that can happen here, a lot of that data are hidden away from us. And yet we are being compelled to assume the risks without being able to offer our informed consent."
Residents plan to rally again today. Earlier this month, an investigation revealed the administration of New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo edited and delayed a federal study that revealed risks associated with fracking — a method of extracting natural gas. According to Capital New York, the edited version of the report removed a reference to the risks of storing gas underground.
Germany: Exposed Gas Pipe Sparks Massive Explosion, Killing 1
In southwestern Germany, an exposed gas pipe at a construction site caused a massive explosion that killed a worker and injured 11 people. The explosion shattered nearby windows and sent flames shooting 650 feet into the air, while the heat melted license plates on nearby vehicles.
Florida City Votes to Secede over State’s Inaction on Climate Change
A small city in Florida has voted for the state’s southern counties to secede due to inaction by state leaders on climate change. Citing the risks posed by rising sea levels, city commissioners in South Miami passed a measure approving the creation of a new state called South Florida, saying it was "a necessity for the very survival of the entire southern region of the current state of Florida." Florida Gov. Rick Scott has refused to acknowledge climate change is manmade. He is running against former governor Charlie Crist in a tight race for re-election.
Actress Felicia Day’s Address Posted Online After She Speaks Out on "Gamergate" Harassment
Another prominent woman is facing online harassment after speaking out about sexism in the video game community. Actress and self-described gamer Felicia Day, known for her roles in the TV shows "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Supernatural," posted an online statement saying she had previously been afraid to address the issue of harassment by members of the so-called Gamergate community. She said she was "terrified" that her personal information would be posted online if she spoke out. Just minutes later, an anonymous commenter posted her address and email. Earlier this month, feminist and video game critic Anita Sarkeesian was forced to cancel a talk in Utah over threats of a shooting massacre at the event. To see our interview with her, click here.
Frank Mankiewicz Dies at 90; Ran George McGovern’s 1972 Antiwar Presidential Campaign
Frank Mankiewicz, who served as press secretary for Sen. Robert Kennedy and directed the 1972 presidential campaign of antiwar candidate Sen. George McGovern, has died at the age of 90. McGovern ran on an anti-Vietnam War platform against Richard Nixon in 1972. Mankiewicz reflected on McGovern’s candidacy in the documentary, "One Bright and Shining Moment: The Forgotten Summer of George McGovern."
Frank Mankiewicz: "All this talk about him as a softy, it was just preposterous. I mean, the man is an authentic American hero. ... We just lost an election. None of us went to jail. Most of the other guys went to jail."
Mankiewicz also served as president of National Public Radio for six years. He died Thursday of heart failure in Washington, D.C.
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