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Talks between Greece and eurozone finance ministers over Athens’ debt broke down Monday when the newly elected leftist Syriza government rejected a deal to extend the terms of the current bailout. The Greek Syriza party was elected last month on a promise to roll back the crippling austerity measures in Greece’s international bailout. While Syriza has taken power in Greece, the grassroots party Podemos is also quickly gaining popularity in Spain, Europe’s fifth largest economy. On January 31, as many as 150,000 people rallied in Madrid to show support for the Podemos party, which translates into "We can." Podemos only became an official party last March, but a recent poll by El País found 28 percent of the population supports the party, enough to possibly win Spain’s next general election. Last May, Podemos surprised many when it received 1.2 million votes and five seats in the European Parliament elections. The party grew out of the "indignados" movement that began occupying squares in Spain four years ago. The indignados rallied against austerity cuts, rising unemployment and Spain’s political establishment. We are joined by Podemos Secretary General Pablo Iglesias, a 36-year-old political science professor and longtime activist who was elected to the European Parliament last year. If Podemos wins Spain’s national elections later this year, he could become Spain’s next prime minister.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AARON MATÉ: We turn now to Europe. On Monday, talks between Greece and eurozone finance ministers over Athens’ debt broke down when the newly elected leftist Syriza government rejected a deal to extend the terms of the current bailout. Meanwhile, a new anti-austerity party is also gaining popularity in Spain, Europe’s fifth-largest economy. On January 31st, as many as 150,000 people rallied in Madrid to show support for the Podemos party—it translates into "We can." Podemos only became an official party last March, but a recent poll found 28 percent of the population supports it, enough to possibly win Spain’s next general election.
AMY GOODMAN: Last May, Podemos surprised many when it received 1.2 million votes and five seats in the European Parliament elections. The party grew out of the indignados movement that began occupying squares in Spain four years ago. The indignados rallied against austerity cuts, rising unemployment and Spain’s political establishment.
On Monday, I sat down with Pablo Iglesias, the secretary general of Podemos. He is a 36-year-old political science professor, longtime activist, who was elected to the European Parliament last year. If Podemos wins Spain’s national elections later this year, he could become Spain’s next prime minister. He is in New York. I began by asking him to talk about Podemos.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Probably we are the answer, the answer to austerity policizing in our country. I never thought it was possible, a political phenomenon as us in our country, and probably we are the result of the disaster of these policies of austerity in Spain. And probably, we are the expression of the hope now. People in my country is starting to understand that in democracy, when something is going wrong, you can do the things well. And probably we are a new opportunity, a new opportunity of change in Spain. And we are pretty happy to be an instrument of the people for the political change.
AMY GOODMAN: What exactly does austerity mean?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Austerity means that people is expulsed of their homes. Austerity means that the social services don’t work anymore. Austerity means that public schools have not the elements, the means to develop their activity. Austerity means that the countries have not sovereignty anymore, and we became a colony of the financial powers and a colony of Germany. Austerity probably means the end of democracy. I think if we don’t have democratic control of economy, we don’t have democracy. It’s impossible to separate economy and democracy, in my opinion.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you explain what the indignados movement is, what it means?
PABLO IGLESIAS: The indignados movement is probably the best expression of organic crisis in the political regime in Spain. In Gramscian terms, that means these demonstration in Puerta del Sol and in other places in Spain means the end of—the end of the consensus with this political regime in Spain. Even if the electoral expression of that new situation was not immediately, I think that it was the basis, it was the key element, that allow us finally to get this support we are getting now.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you’ve won in the European Parliament. What is your strategy going forward?
PABLO IGLESIAS: The first thing is to make visible the problems that European citizen have. And we use all the time the European Parliament in order to give visibility to social groups and to give visibility to problems, in order to open a discussion in the society. And in fact, the media attention to the European Parliament since we are there is great, is growing, and we are happy with that.
AMY GOODMAN: Podemos has organized citizens’ assemblies.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yes, we have circles. Circles are the local agrupación of people of Podemos. And we have more than 1,200 in Spain and overseas. In the United States, there is a circle, a Podemos circle. And we will—I will meet them today. And tonight, we have a meeting with them and a conference. And I’m—
AMY GOODMAN: And what do these circles do?
PABLO IGLESIAS: The circles are activists, and they organize campaigns. They have meetings with civil society, with civil society in their cities and in their districts. They are the basis. They are the most important instrument of Podemos in order to have relationship with society.
AMY GOODMAN: Pablo Iglesias, can you explain the political landscape in Spain—the PP, the socialists, your own party, Podemos, even the other parties, Esquerda Unida—
PABLO IGLESIAS: Unida.
AMY GOODMAN: —and why your party rose up and pulled away support from these other parties?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Probably, we have been able to change the chess party, the chess game, because we don’t accept this old distinction, distinction between left and right. Obviously, I am a leftist, but I think that this game that separate the political field, between center-left and center-right, sometimes is something very useful to make the banks win. And we say we have a program. We have a program defending democracy. We want social services. We want public education. We want sovereignty. And we are sure that there is a majority of the society that is supporting us. So it’s not a problem for us the past of the people. If you in the past vote for the right, no problem for us. If you support our ideas, if you support the possibility of a political change in Spain, if you support democracy, you can be with us. In fact, the two messages of the 15-M movement in our country—
AMY GOODMAN: That was May 15th.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yeah, exactly, May 15. It was: We want democracy, and we don’t feel represented by this elite of all politicians. So, we think that there is a big difference between the old situation and the new situation. And people in Spain is starting to understand that the old political elites are not able to improve the situation and to resolve the economic and political problems in my country.
AMY GOODMAN: Pablo, how did you move from being a movement to a party? How was that decision made?
PABLO IGLESIAS: For necessity, because we understood very well that if you need to change the things, you need political power. And we were activists, and we used to work in social fields in the civil society, but we know that it’s very important to occupy the institutional powers in order to change things. It’s quite important to be in the Parliament. It’s quite important to win the elections.
AMY GOODMAN: Would you describe the socialists and the PP sort of like the Republicans and Democrats in the United States?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: They’re the two main parties.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: How have they responded to the rise of Podemos?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Using the same language. It’s something quite ironic that the center-left and the center-right party use the main—the same words in order to attack us. And I’m sure that the voters of the socialist party don’t like that, and many of our voters came from the socialist party. But unfortunately, in my country, they showed that they support the same economic policy, and that was a disaster in my country. They both develop austerity policies that bring our country to a terrible situation now.
AMY GOODMAN: What is that situation? Can you describe unemployment and other issues?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yes, yes. My country have three big problems: inequality, unemployment and debt. And the socialist party and the popular party in my country understood that the best way to improve the situation was austerity. After five years, or even more, even six years, the situation is worse than before. So, we think that in democracy, if something doesn’t work, you can change. And we are saying, we want to organize another way to improve the situation.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you take Podemos’s name from President Obama’s whole "Yes, we can" sort of mantra leading into his election?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Of course not. The expression, "Yes, we can," came from the Latinos in the '70s fighting for their rights. And it was a good example for us. Obama was quite clever using that, but it's not a creation of Obama.
AMY GOODMAN: My colleague Juan González, co-host on Democracy Now!, just wrote a column in the New York Daily News about these U.S. firms that are buying housing in Spain, raising rent and evicting tenants. He particularly looked at Blackstone Group, Goldman Sachs, Apollo Management, Cerberus, which have quietly been buying up tens of thousands of residential properties in Madrid and Barcelona at low prices. Now, protesters have gathered outside Blackstone Group in the last weeks in the United States to protest what not only these companies are doing here, but what they’re doing in your country.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yeah, in our country, and the government is doing nothing. That’s the reason because we need to win the elections. It’s completely unacceptable that these people are getting houses, and many Spanish families are without a house, in a very difficult situation. I think we need a government ready to protect the people against these kind of people.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you explain the system in Spain that people here would find unusual, that you owe mortgage payments even after you’ve been evicted from your house?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Exactly, exactly.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain this phenomenon, these rules in Spain that have actually led to suicides.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yeah, yeah, exactly. When you don’t have enough money in order to pay to the bank, you have to give your house. And after that, you have to pay for the interest, and you have to pay for your debt. And even you don’t have a house, and you have to give a very big part of your salary, if you have a salary, because you have a work, to the bank. This is completely absurd. There are many families in Spain in a desperate situation because they don’t have a house and they have to pay to the banks. And the banks are the—have some responsibility with the crisis, not the families. So, it’s a completely unacceptable situation.
AMY GOODMAN: What should happen?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Because the government—the government organized a legislation for the banks, a legislation very good for the banks and very bad for the families.
AMY GOODMAN: If you were prime minister, what would be the three major first steps you would take?
PABLO IGLESIAS: The first things is to finish with the evictions of the families. And this is quite easy. Using the European law, we could stop that in the first week. I think it’s very important to organize a restructuration of the debt. It’s impossible to assume for a government the level of the debt now. And a fiscal reform. In my country are just the middle and small companies that pay taxes, and the workers; and the rich, the rich companies and the top companies, have very little fiscal pressure. So it should be very important to make a fiscal reform.
AMY GOODMAN: Pablo Iglesias, you would not only be dealing with domestic policy, but foreign policy. I mean, when Prime Minister Aznar was in office, he supported President Bush—
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: —in invading Iraq. But Prime Minister Zapatero, who came next, he pulled the troops out.
PABLO IGLESIAS: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: Where do you stand on issues in the Middle East, on what should happen with the Islamic State, ISIS, ISIL, and other conflict areas?
PABLO IGLESIAS: I think we need a new leadership that defend the peace. And I think that use military in order to confront terrorism sometime was not useful. And I think that the policy of the United States regarding Middle East sometimes bring more problems than solutions. I think that in Europe we need a European system of defense. I don’t like the military sovereignty of Europe depending of the NATO. And I think that we have to protect—to protect the peace.
AMY GOODMAN: The situation of Ukraine now?
PABLO IGLESIAS: I think that Europeans need a good relationship with Russia. I don’t like the political system in Russia; I’m not a supporter of Vladimir Putin. But I think Europeans, we don’t need a prebellic situation with Russia. I think some European powers were supporting a coup d’état in Ukraine, and that is not a good move. And now Europeans are in danger.
AMY GOODMAN: What about the Western Sahara? It’s not as well known in the United States, but it’s certainly a major issue in Spain.
PABLO IGLESIAS: I think we have a responsibility with Sahara, and we should support autodermination of Western Sahara, and I think they have the right to have their own country.
AMY GOODMAN: Israel-Palestine?
PABLO IGLESIAS: It’s a completely—a complete disaster. Israel is violating the international law all the time. And I think that the international community should have some pressure to Israel in order to respect the international law and go back to the borders of the—before the war.
AMY GOODMAN: Podemos has been compared to Syriza. You’ve described some of the ways you’re similar. How are you different?
PABLO IGLESIAS: We are different because we just have one year of history, and Syriza is a very well-organized political party. And we have different history and a different political context. I think the economic situation in Greece is different in respect to Spain, and the economic situation, too. But we think they are the possibility of change in Greece, and we admire them so much, and we are friends, and we will collaborate with them.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you have any words of advice for President Obama, now in his second term? He can’t run again. Whether he will be a lame-duck president or a legacy president remains to be seen.
PABLO IGLESIAS: I don’t know. I don’t know what could I say to President Obama. There is something that I like. We both love The Wire, the HBO series. And I like Omar, too. And I read that Obama like this character, this character Omar. And I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: Why do you like The Wire?
PABLO IGLESIAS: I think it’s probably the best TV series in order to explain how the power works, how the power works in politics, in media, in the organization of the work. I think it’s a masterpiece. I used to teach political geography in my faculty, and all the time I was saying to my students, "You have to see this TV series, because it’s great in order to understand how the power works."
AMY GOODMAN: Do you have anything like that in Spain?
PABLO IGLESIAS: Not in that level. I think that The Wire is the best series.
AMY GOODMAN: Pablo Iglesias, leader of the Podemos party in Spain, which is leading in at least one poll for the national elections in Spain. He is speaking today in New York at the CUNY Grad Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, at 1:00 p.m. We’ll also be posting an interview with Iglesias in Spanish on our website later this week at democracynow.org.
Four years after the U.S.-led bombing campaign toppled Muammar Gaddafi’s government, Libya is in a state of crisis. On Monday, Egypt bombed Islamic State targets in Libya after the group released a video showing the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians. Egypt claims it hit ISIS targets "precisely," but at least seven civilians, including three children, were reportedly killed in the coastal city of Derna. The attacks come as Libya faces what the United Nations calls "the worst political crisis and escalation of violence" since the U.S.-backed overthrow of Gaddafi in 2011. Two different governments claim power, each with their own parliaments and armies. A number of militant groups, including the Islamic State affiliate, are scattered in between. Will foreign governments intervene in Libya again? We are joined by Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous, who is just back from a reporting trip in Libya, and Vijay Prashad, a professor of international studies at Trinity College and author of several books, including "Arab Spring, Libyan Winter."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AARON MATÉ: Egypt has opened a new front in the war against ISIS. On Monday, Egyptian warplanes bombed northeastern Libya after Cairo vowed to avenge the killing of 21 Coptic Christians. Egypt claims it hit ISIS targets, quote, "precisely," but at least seven civilians, including three children, were reportedly killed in the coastal city of Derna. The bombings come after the Islamic State released a video showing the beheading of the 21 kidnapped Egyptians. The victims are led onto a beach dressed in orange jumpsuits like Guantánamo Bay prisoners. They are then beheaded one by one. The lead executioner points his knife at the camera and delivers a message to what he calls the "crusaders."
LEAD EXECUTIONER: O people, recently, you’ve seen us on the hills of as-Sham and on Dabiq’s plain, chopping off the heads that have been carrying the cross for a long time, filled with spite against Islam and Muslims. And today, we are on the south of Rome, on the land of Islam, Libya, sending another message: O crusaders, safety for you will be only wishes, especially when you’re fighting us all together.
AARON MATÉ: The victims were all migrant workers kidnapped late last year. There are now reports more Egyptians have been kidnapped inside Libya in recent days. The video is the first showing an Islamic State beheading outside of its strongholds in Syria and Iraq. ISIS is one of several militant groups that have emerged inside Libya since the U.S.-backed overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi in 2011. Today marks four years since the official start of the Libyan revolution, which ended in Gaddafi’s ouster and death.
AMY GOODMAN: Now the country faces what the United Nations calls "the worst political crisis and escalation of violence" since that time. Two different governments run Libya, each with their own parliaments and armies. The internationally recognized government operates from the eastern cities of Tobruk and Bayda, after a rival group called Libya Dawn seized the capital Tripoli in August. A number of militant groups, including the Islamic State affiliate, are scattered in between.
Egypt’s bombing marks the first time ISIS has been targeted with strikes outside Iraq and Syria. And although it emerged in the upheaval following the 2011 intervention, there is talk now of a new foreign operation beyond the Egyptian strikes. On Monday, Italy said it would weigh attacks on the Islamic State in Libya if U.N.-backed talks fail to reconcile Libya’s rival factions. Italian Interior Minister Angelino Alfano called for direct NATO intervention, saying, quote, "ISIS is at the door. There is no time to waste."
The current war authorization measure before the U.S. Congress also increases the prospect of direct U.S. intervention. President Obama has asked lawmakers to grant him expansive authority to target the Islamic State anywhere in the world, beyond the current campaign in Syria and Iraq. With Washington’s ally, Egypt, starting a new front, that opens the question of whether Libya is next on the U.S. target list.
For more, we’re joined by two guests. From Cairo, we’re joined by Sharif Abdel Kouddous, Democracy Now!'s correspondent and a fellow at The Nation Institute. He has just returned from a reporting trip in Libya. And joining us is Vijay Prashad, professor of international studies at Trinity College, columnist for the Indian magazine Frontline. He's the author of several books, including Arab Spring, Libyan Winter and, most recently, The Poorer Nations: A Possible History of the Global South. He’s joining us from Connecticut Public Television, the PBS station in Hartford.
Professor Vijay Prashad, let’s begin with you. The significance of the Egyptian strike on Libya, ISIS’s beheading of the Christian—of the Coptic Christians from Egypt?
VIJAY PRASHAD: Amy, this is not the first Egyptian airstrike in Libya. It’s reported, although Egypt denies it, that in August of last year Egyptian fighter planes, alongside fighter planes from the UAE, struck targets near Tripoli, the capital of Libya, at that time going after the escalation by Libyan Dawn to capture the city and the parliament. Libyan Dawn is dominated—it’s a coalition, but dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, which is of course the group that President Sisi has seen as his main enemy inside Egypt. So, when Egypt began its second round of airstrikes on Monday, the parliament in Tripoli, again, dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, immediately condemned the airstrike as a violation of Libyan sovereignty. The problem with the Libyan air—the Egyptian airstrikes has been that in a very short time it has immediately opened up the polarization inside Libya, precisely the opposite political direction which Libya requires at this time, according to the United Nations.
AARON MATÉ: Well, Vijay, can you talk about how we’ve come to this point where, four years after the Libyan revolution began, now the Islamic State is claiming territory there and carrying out brutal attacks such as this one?
VIJAY PRASHAD: Well, it’s a great, you know, consternation and shame, I think, to the so-called international community that this NATO intervention of 2011 came on the heels of geopolitical wrangling between the Gulf Arab states and the Europeans. This intervention came in. It destroyed much of Libyan infrastructure at a crucial point, when Mr. Gaddafi was taken prisoner. If he had been allowed to surrender, for instance, there might have been a process opened up to bring different factions to a political table. Instead, of course, he was brutally killed, and the possibility of reconciliation at that point was squandered.
Secondly, there was no attempt by any party to bring the various revolutionaries, the thuwwar, into any kind of umbrella organization. They were allowed to have a fissiparous existence, returning to their various cities, creating—rather, you know, deepening their separation, deepening the kind of antipathy between—amongst them. And in this strange position, the NATO-backed government took power in Tripoli, where many opportunities by this government were also squandered. You know, there were oil worker strikes. There was the question of the armed militias. At no point did the government in Tripoli seem engaged by these pressing issues. Instead, one of the first acts of this government was to create a central bank. It was very interested in making deals for oil. But at really no point did they attempt a genuine political process of reconciliation inside the country. That has torn apart Libya. It alienated the east.
And for the first time in Libya, a sophisticated al-Qaeda-type group was allowed to flourish, and that was Ansar al-Sharia, which grew out in Benghazi. You know, the previous Islamist group, the Libyan international—Islamist Fighting Group, had by 2011 put itself at the service of the government, but that gesture was, as well, rebuffed.
So, I mean, I think a combination of Gulf Arab animosity between Qatar and Saudi Arabia, the, you know, maybe really disregard by the West, and internal problems, where the government in Tripoli, that rode into power on the backs of NATO, really alienated the population from any possibility of a future.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to bring Sharif Abdel Kouddous into this conversation in Egypt’s capital, Cairo. Sharif, can you talk about the response right now in Egypt to Egypt’s bombing of Libya, where you just were, and who the people were who were killed in Egypt, the Coptic Christians, killed by ISIS there?
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Right, well, the airing of the video really struck a chord amongst many Egyptians, especially the Coptic Christian community. The nature of the message—there was no political demands made. It was an entirely sectarian message that was delivered.
But, you know, the strikes are significant. Vijay is right that there have been covert strikes before, especially in coordination with the United Arab Emirates, on Libya by Egypt. But they’re significant insofar as they’re the first publicly acknowledged foreign military intervention by Egypt, arguably, since the Gulf War, more than—or nearly a quarter of a century ago. They claim—the Libyan army claims that they hit 95 percent of their targets and they killed over 50 militants. But, you know, that’s rarely the case, that kind of accuracy, in aerial bombing. And already Human Rights Watch has said six civilians were killed, including a mother and two children. But politically, certainly domestically, the strikes were a success. Before the airing of this video, the families of the hostages held protests against the government, accusing the government of Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of not doing enough to release the hostages. But since the airstrikes, Sisi has received widespread support. He’s seen as having acted swiftly and decisively. The state and private media, which is really a vocal chorus for Sisi, is whipping up a lot of nationalist sentiment. The army has been deployed to the streets to, quote-unquote, "protect" citizens. And really, the war on terror is Sisi’s source of legitimacy. It’s his raison d’être. So, this is all playing into that vein.
In terms of the 21 Coptic Christian men, the majority of them all came from one small village in central Egypt called Al-Our. And they were, like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of Egyptians do, migrant workers who left Egypt to search for better wages in Libya. They can earn up to seven times the paltry sums they can earn here in Egypt in Libya’s oil-rich economy. They ended up in Sirte, which is a coastal city in central Libya that was the birthplace of Gaddafi but has since become a stronghold for militants, especially groups like Ansar al-Sharia, which was accused of killing U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens in 2012, but has since been infiltrated by even more extreme militants. And survivors who evaded capture by the militants really describe a harrowing ordeal, where these militants were coming house by house, calling out these migrant workers by name, leaving the Muslims and taking the Coptic Christian men. And so, it really was—I think sent shockwaves through much of Egypt to see this video aired.
AMY GOODMAN: And the response of Egyptian society in terms of religions? Why Coptic Christians, do you think, were targeted? And the place of Coptic Christians in greater Egyptian society?
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Well, this is not the first time Coptic Christians have been targeted in Libya. A doctor and his wife and daughter were killed in December. There have been other incidents, as well. We can only look to the—what the statement by the Islamic State group was, and it was calling for revenge for the Coptic Christian crusade, and this very overtly sectarian nature of the attacks. Egypt has a Coptic Christian minority, which is about 10 percent of the population. And they suffer from discrimination in various types of laws, of how they can build churches and other ways of discrimination, as well, in terms of marriage laws and so forth. So, you know, this really struck a chord within the community, but I think, overall, there is now in Egyptian society this hyped-up sentiment for war, and there’s a lot of support, it seems, for these airstrikes.
AARON MATÉ: And, Sharif, you were just in Libya, this bombing coming just as the U.N. is trying to broker some kind of deal between the two rival factions that claim two different governments, with two different armies, in parliament. What can you tell us about the internal conflict inside Libya and how these Egyptian strikes might affect them?
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Well, you know, there’s a power struggle that’s engulfing the country, as Vijay outlined. And Libya is really—to go there, it’s really—it’s hardly a country anymore. It’s really a torn stretch of land, and Libyans have to negotiate a minefield of regional, political and tribal conflicts just in order to survive. You have these two rival coalitions, which are opposed to each other, each with their own array of militias, each with their own prime minister and government, and each claiming legitimacy. You have in the east, in Bayda and Tobruk, the internationally recognized government that is allied with Khalifa Haftar, a former general who has waged a battle against Islamist militias in Benghazi, and they were forced out of the capital in a weeks-long battle over the summer. And in the west, in Tripoli, where the Oil Ministry is, where the National Oil Corporation is, you have the self-declared government, which, very broadly speaking, is backed by an array of militias which are Islamist-aligned, but also has a tactical alliance with very extreme militias over whom they have no control.
And so, this conflict has been raging, has caused massive displacement, has created a void in which groups like the Islamic State group can flourish, really. And there was one driver that we had at one point, and he gave a telling quote, saying, "In the east, they assume I’m Fajr," which is the Libya Dawn; "In the west, they assume I’m Karama," which is Haftar’s; "And in Derna, they wanted to behead me," referring to the Islamic State group. And so, this is the kind of political situation that Libyans find themselves in. And the politicians seem to be operating in a different realm from ordinary Libyans, a realm that has everything to do with power and very little to do with governing.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to Anders Fogh Rasmussen, former head of NATO. Speaking to Britain’s Channel 4 Monday, he said foreign boots will be needed on the ground in Libya.
ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN: The brief answer is we will need boots on the ground. It’s clear that you can’t—you can’t do the job through air campaigns alone. You need boots on the ground. The only question is, which boots? And in that respect, I do believe that countries in the region should play a major role in deploying such forces. But they can’t do that, and they won’t do that, unless the West supports.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Anders Fogh Rasmussen, former head of NATO. Which boots on the ground, Professor Vijay Prashad? What about what he’s saying—not only should there be, but which ones?
VIJAY PRASHAD: Well, you know, it’s interesting because Mr. Rasmussen has categorically over the last four years said that NATO should not get involved in Syria, because it’s too complicated and the issue is fraught with all kinds of consequences. In Libya, on the other hand, you know, there’s an attitude towards it, which is that it’s a playground. You know, you can encourage intervention. You can let people come in.
I mean, I think it’s a very dangerous attitude for the simple reason that unless the political question is somewhat settled, talking about sending boots on the ground, whether Egyptian or Algerian, is, I think, a mistake. What I’m trying to say is that there is an Arab cold war that’s broken out in northern Africa, where, you know, on the one side you have Saudi Arabia with Egypt, perhaps, with the UAE, on the other side you have Qatar, and you have Turkey. You have these countries that are helping fuel internal disagreements. And until there’s an understanding that these external actors need to stop providing succor to internal contradictions, and until the U.N. is able to bring these internal parties to sit down and construct some kind of political dialogue which is real, to talk about sending in boots on the ground is only going to exacerbate matters.
If Egypt enters with its considerable military into Libya, this is going to create a great deal of, you know, problems with Qatar. And God knows what they would do. Meanwhile, of course, the Islamic State is looking forward to greater Egyptian intervention, because—and one of the reasons that they are going after the Copts is not only because their preferred, you know, enemy, the Shia, are nonexistent in Libya, but also they’ve been seeking a way to create greater fractures in Egypt itself, to insinuate themselves in Egypt.
So the idea of having boots on the ground, without putting great pressure on the major Arab countries in the region to sort of cool it on their own internal fights that are greatly affecting Libyan politics, until that happens, I fear that it’s naïve to talk about airstrikes, and it is incredibly naïve and duplicitous to talk about boots on the ground.
AARON MATÉ: Well, Vijay, on the issue of naïveté, looking back, Libya was hailed as a model for humanitarian intervention after Gaddafi was overthrown and killed. Now, though, I imagine, as the country unravels and descends into this resting ground for Islamist militant groups like ISIS, defenders of the NATO intervention will point back to Benghazi. At the time, there appeared to be, at least in my opinion, back then, a credible threat that Gaddafi was going to carry out a massacre in Benghazi, and the argument was that something had to be done. Now, putting aside what NATO’s actual motives were, the threat of a massacre did seem credible, but I’m wondering, looking back now, what we know in hindsight, do you think that that particular pretext of preventing atrocities in Benghazi stands up to scrutiny?
VIJAY PRASHAD: Well, you know, it depends what you’re going to look at. If you’re going to look at the evidence that Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International produced after the worst part of the NATO bombing ended, it’s not clear that the casualty rates that had been claimed by—particularly by the Saudi media, which was Al Arabiya, it’s not clear that those casualty rates were accurate. In fact, they were greatly exaggerated, so that the claim by Al Arabiya that there were already massacres in Misurata, that there was a massacre in Ras Lanuf, etc., turns out in the end not to have been true.
Now, it’s not to say that the Gaddafi government wasn’t prepared to conduct, you know, very brutal violence in the east and in cities in the center, but you have to recognize—and this is what I think the international media at the time wasn’t willing to inhale—you have to recognize that in the east Gaddafi’s military largely defected to the rebellion, so that the battalion and the air command in Benghazi was on the side of the rebellion. There had already been aerial strikes by rebel aircraft against Gaddafi boats that were in the Mediterranean.
So what I’m saying is that there was a very complicated situation at the time. You know, mainly Saudi media, and then pushed by various international media, including CNN, began to drum up this idea that there was a massacre. I remember, in the U.N. Security Council, ambassadors talking about getting their information from the international media. That struck me as really very, very disturbing, particularly given the fact that credible human rights organizations, after the fact, showed that the numbers had been greatly exaggerated by news media, particularly by Al Arabiya.
AMY GOODMAN: Sharif Abdel Kouddous, before we end this segment, could you comment, on the ground, just having been in Libya, about the humanitarian crisis there?
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Right. Libya—ordinary Libyans are really suffering. There is massive displacement. The U.N. estimates about 400,000 have been displaced. Many of them are living in schools. Many have left the country altogether. Many civil society activists, journalists, writers have left under threats. Those Libyans who do want to leave, because they can find no more life in Libya, find that the world has rejected them. Many complain that they can’t get visas because they’re Libyan.
And most of the displaced that we saw were from Benghazi, Libya’s second-largest city, which is the birthplace of the revolution and is now really the epicenter of the disaster. People describe completely bombed-out neighborhoods. They said it looks like Aleppo. There is neighborhood youth who are armed, manning checkpoints all over the city. And, you know, just the simple truth of where you’re from can determine your fate.
So—and just overall dysfunction has really become a way of life in Libya. Libyans are forced to bear the burden of the conflict as it tears away the last vestiges of normalcy. Traveling across the country is arduous. Delays at airports can literally take days. If you want to take a—go by car, then you’re going to risk checkpoints and kidnapping and different militias, which you have to negotiate. In the east, particularly, there’s very bad electricity shortages. There’s fuel shortages. We were in Bayda, which is the seat of the internationally recognized government. They are experiencing a huge influx of refugees there, of displaced. This has caused rents to go up, food prices to go up. There’s food shortages.
The crisis is most acutely felt in the hospital, where, for example, we went to the kidney treatment center, which is receiving now three times more patients. And so, for dialysis, they have to ration treatment. And a technician told us how this is reducing the lifespan of patients. He told it to us in English, because he was saying it as a patient was getting dialysis. He spoke of how his own niece, his newborn niece, died because they couldn’t find a very simple tube for a blood transfusion that she needed, and she died before they could even name her.
And in Tripoli, you know, you see masked gunmen at checkpoints at night for the first time. They’ve never been masked before. The streets are deserted. You speak to government officials—the defense minister, Khalifa al-Ghwel, was telling us how safe Tripoli was. The very next day, armed militants stormed the biggest hotel in Tripoli, the Corinthia Hotel, and killed nine people, including a number of foreigners. So, this is really—it’s really quite a disaster for ordinary Libyans. And there needs to be some kind of political solution on the ground, because, you know, jihadists thrive on more war, and this whole talk of more conflict, I don’t think will solve much in the long term.
AMY GOODMAN: Sharif, we want to ask you to stay with us in our next segment to briefly update us on the Al Jazeera journalists who are now going on trial, who must remain in Egypt, but they are out on bail. Sharif Abdel Kouddous, Democracy Now!'s correspondent in Cairo and a fellow at The Nation Institute, recently returned from a reporting trip inside Libya. And thank you so much to Professor Vijay Prashad, professor of international studies at Trinity College, columnist for the Indian magazine Frontline, author of a number of books, including Arab Spring, Libyan Winter and, most recently, The Poorer Nations: A Possible History of the Global South. This is Democracy Now! We'll be back in a minute.
Al Jazeera journalists Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed are free on bail in Egypt after more than a year in prison. The pair, and a third colleague, Peter Greste, were arrested as part of a crackdown on Al Jazeera following the ouster of President Mohamed Morsi in 2013. They were sentenced last June to between seven and 10 years in prison, a ruling condemned around the world. Greste was released earlier this month and deported home to Australia. Then last week, after 411 days behind bars, Fahmy and Mohamed were freed on bail. Despite their release, the case has not been dismissed. A new hearing is scheduled for next week. We are joined by Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous in Cairo, who has been following their cases closely.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Aaron Maté. In our next segment, we’ll be speaking with the head of Podemos in Spain, Pablo Iglesias. Some are wondering if he will be the next prime minister of Spain. But first, we remain in Egypt. Aaron?
AARON MATÉ: As we continue in Egypt, where Al Jazeera journalists Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed are free on bail after over a year in prison. The pair and a third colleague, Peter Greste, were arrested as part of a crackdown on Al Jazeera following the ouster of President Mohamed Morsi in 2013. They were sentenced last June to between seven and 10 years in prison, a ruling condemned around the world.
AMY GOODMAN: Peter Greste was released earlier this month and deported home to Australia. Then, last week, after over 400 days behind bars, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed were freed on bail. On Monday, Baher Mohamed celebrated his newfound freedom. Despite their release, the case has not been dismissed. A new hearing is scheduled for next week.
Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous has covered this story from the beginning. You can see his report on last week’s court proceedings ordering the pair’s release at our website, democracynow.org. And he’s been covering the case for the Toronto Star, Canada’s largest daily newspaper. He interviewed Mohamed Fahmy for a front-page article on Sunday.
Very briefly, Sharif, if you can tell us the latest and tell us about Mohamed Fahmy, his feelings now about Egypt, about Canada?
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Well, Amy, it was a rare moment of joy in an Egyptian courtroom when the judge ordered bail. They’d been in prison for 411 days, and finally they’ve been released. But I think we have to realize that they still have this ongoing trial, they still face the same charges, and there’s still the danger.
Mohamed Fahmy has been very critical of the Canadian government. The government of Stephen Harper has close ties to the Sisi regime, and they have not—Harper has not personally intervened. He’s calling on Harper to call Sisi. He’s looking to be deported to Canada and benefit from a decree that Sisi passed in November which allowed Peter Greste to be deported. Fahmy is also very upset that he was essentially, he says, tricked into giving up his Egyptian citizenship in the hopes of benefiting from that decree. He was pressured by senior Egyptians officials, and now he had to pay a $33,000 bail to get out, when the other prisoners didn’t, and he lost his Egyptian nationality.
And I just want to take a chance also to highlight the fact that while these journalists have received a lot of attention, there are other journalists who have practically no attention who are imprisoned in Egypt, one of whom is Mahmoud Abou Zeid. His name is—he’s known as Shawkan. He’s a photojournalist. He’s been in prison for 550 days in a three-by-four-meter cell with 12 other prisoners. He describes his ordeal as an endless nightmare. So, while we’re happy that these two journalists are finally reunited with their families, there’s still other journalists in prison and tens of thousands of political prisoners in Egypt, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Sharif, we want to thank you for being with us. Sharif Abdel Kouddous, Democracy Now!'s correspondent in Cairo, fellow at The Nation Institute, has just returned from a reporting trip in Libya. This is Democracy Now! When we come back from break, we speak to the leader of a new party in Spain that has garnered massive support. It's called Podemos, "We can." Stay with us.
Headlines:
Egypt Opens New Front in War Against ISIS
Egypt has opened a new front in the war against the Islamic State. On Monday, Egyptian warplanes bombed northeastern Libya after Cairo vowed to avenge the killing of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians, shown in an ISIS video. Egypt says it hit ISIS sites "precisely." But at least seven civilians, including three children, were reportedly killed in the coastal city of Derna. Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, meanwhile, called for a U.N. resolution to launch a global coalition to intervene in Libya.
Abdel Fattah el-Sisi: "What is going on in Libya could change this country into a breeding ground that will threaten the whole region, and not only Egypt. Egypt, the Mediterranean basin and Europe have to deal with this problem because the mission was unaccomplished, was unfinished by our European friends. We abandoned the Libyan people as prisoners to extremist militias."
The U.S.-led coalition, meanwhile, launched 15 airstrikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria on Sunday and Monday.
Pakistan: 7 Killed in Suicide Attack on Police HQ
In Pakistan, at least seven people have been killed in the suicide bombing of a police headquarters in the eastern city of Lahore. A Taliban splinter group claimed responsibility, saying the attack was revenge for Pakistan’s execution of its colleagues.
Ukraine: Rebels Claim Key City of Debaltseve
In breaking news from eastern Ukraine, Russian-backed separatists claim to have seized control of the key city of Debaltseve. Fierce fighting has raged in the area despite a ceasefire agreement.
Greek Talks Collapse over Differences on Austerity
Talks between Greece and its European creditors have collapsed amid disagreement over the future of German-backed austerity. The Greek Syriza party was elected on a promise to roll back the devastating austerity measures in Greece’s international bailout. At talks in Brussels, Greek negotiators rejected a deal to extend the terms of the current bailout. Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis said he had tried to negotiate.
Yanis Varoufakis: "We were offering to refrain from effectively implementing our own program, the program that we were elected to implement, for a period of six months. And all we were getting back was a nebulous promise of some flexibility that was never specified. Under those circumstances, ladies and gentlemen, it proved impossible for the Greek government, despite our infinite goodwill, to sign the offered communiqué. And so the discussions continue."
The breakdown has raised fears Greece may be on the verge of leaving the eurozone. The talks in Brussels came after some 20,000 people rallied in Athens to support Syriza’s stance against austerity.
West Virginia: 1,000 Evacuated After Oil Train Derails
A CSX train carrying more than 100 cars of crude oil has derailed in West Virginia, sending a massive fireball into the sky and forcing 1,000 people to evacuate. Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin has declared a state of emergency. At least 14 tankers and a house caught fire, and at least one car went into the Kanawha River, where it was leaking oil. The train was transporting oil from the Bakken shale in North Dakota, where a fracking boom has increased oil-by-rail shipments more than 4,000 percent in recent years. The incident came after another oil train derailed in Ontario, Canada, Saturday night, sparking a fire that was still burning on Monday.
Labor Secretary to Join Talks on Contract Dispute at Ports
Secretary of Labor Tom Perez is due in California today for talks aimed at ending a contract dispute between shipping companies and union dockworkers. For days, the shipping firms have partially shut down activity at 29 West Coast ports handling nearly half of all U.S. maritime trade, after accusing workers of waging a slowdown. But union officials deny the slowdown and blame backups on the companies. The dispute has left dozens of container ships idling off the coast.
Judge Blocks Obama’s Executive Actions on Immigration
A federal judge in Texas has blocked President Obama’s executive actions on immigration. In November, Obama outlined programs aimed at providing relief from deportation to as many as five million people. But Texas and 25 other states sued to oppose the measures. Two days before the first of the programs was due to start taking applications, Judge Andrew Hanen blocked them.
Report: NSA Embeds Spyware in Hard Drives Around the World
A new probe finds the National Security Agency has embedded spying devices deep inside hard drives in computers around the world. The Russian firm Kaspersky Lab says it uncovered the spyware in personal computers across 30 countries, from Iran, Russia, Pakistan and Libya, to China, Belgium, Ecuador and the United States. The targets include government institutions, oil and gas firms, Islamic activists and scholars, and the media.
Hundreds Show Solidarity in Paris After Denmark Attack
Hundreds of people gathered at the Danish Embassy in Paris to express solidarity with Denmark over the weekend attacks on a free speech event and a synagogue. The Danish ambassador to France, Anne Dorte Riggelsen, said the feelings are similar to those that followed last month’s attacks on Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris.
Anne Dorte Riggelsen: "It’s really moving, because what I feel is that everyone feels Danish, like we all felt French, Charlie, cop, Jew. And this solidarity, that’s almost physical and corporeal, is very, very important for my country, for my people, because today we are in mourning."
Danish authorities have arrested two people accused of assisting the Copenhagen gunman, Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein, who was shot dead by police.
Craig Hicks Indicted for Killing 3 Muslim Students
A North Carolina grand jury has indicted Craig Hicks on three counts of murder for killing three Muslim students in Chapel Hill. Police have claimed the shooting stemmed from a parking dispute, but the victims’ family has said it was clearly a hate crime. In a statement, Nihad Awad, head of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said, "This case is quickly becoming a touchstone for the American-Muslim community’s sense of security and inclusion."
Arrest Made in Fire at Islamic Center in Houston
Authorities in Houston, Texas, have arrested a homeless man for setting a fire at an Islamic center last week. Officials say Darryl Ferguson approached officers and admitted to starting the fire. He told reporters it was an accident.
U.S. Judge Rejects Retrial Bid from Palestinian Activist Rasmea Odeh
In Detroit, a federal judge has rejected a bid for a new trial from a Palestinian activist convicted of immigration fraud. Rasmea Odeh was found guilty of concealing her conviction on bombing charges by an Israeli military court more than 40 years ago. She says her confession to the bombings was obtained through torture and sexual assault in Israeli custody. Supporters say she was targeted by U.S. authorities because of her prominent support for Palestinian liberation. She faces up to 10 years in prison and deportation at her sentencing next month.
Israeli Supreme Court Denies Appeal from Rachel Corrie’s Family
The Israeli Supreme Court has rejected an appeal from the family of Rachel Corrie, the U.S. activist crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer in Gaza nearly 12 years ago, as she tried to protect a Palestinian home from demolition. Corrie’s parents had sued the Israeli Ministry of Defense for a symbolic $1 in damages. But a lower court cleared the military of responsibility, saying Corrie’s death had taken place in a "war zone." Last week, the Supreme Court upheld that decision. The Corrie family said in a statement: "We had hoped for a different outcome, though we have come to see through this experience how deeply all of Israel’s institutions are implicated in the impunity enjoyed by the Israeli military."
Amnesty International Condemns Re-indictment of Albert Woodfox
Amnesty International has renewed its call for Louisiana to release the longest-serving U.S. prisoner in solitary confinement. Former Black Panther Albert Woodfox’s conviction has been overturned three times, and in November an appeals court upheld the latest court order for his release. But last week, a Louisiana grand jury re-indicted Woodfox for the 1972 murder of a prison guard. He and the late Herman Wallace, another member of the Angola 3, said they were framed for their political activism. In a statement, Amnesty International called for Louisiana Attorney General Buddy Caldwell to "stop pursuing a campaign of vengeance by trying to re-indict a man who has already spent more than four decades in cruel confinement, after a legal process tainted with flaws." Woodfox turns 68 this Thursday.
Oregon: Kate Brown to Become 1st Openly Bisexual Governor in U.S.
Oregon Gov. John Kitzhaber is preparing for his final day in office Wednesday after announcing he would step down amid a public corruption probe. Since Oregon does not have a lieutenant governor, Secretary of State Kate Brown will take his place, becoming the first openly bisexual governor in U.S. history.
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