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Next time you are at an airport, you may not want to gaze down at your feet. But also be careful not to stare at anyone with your eyes wide open. Both of these behaviors are listed on a "suspicious signs" checklist used by the U.S. Transportation Security Administration. The Intercept obtained the confidential document from a source concerned about the quality of the program. The document shows how the TSA identifies potential terrorists based on behaviors that it thinks indicate stress or deception, including "fidgeting," "whistling" and "throat clearing." The checklist is part of the TSA’s controversial program known as the "Screening of Passengers by Observation Techniques.” It employs specially trained officers, known as behavior detection officers, to watch and interact with passengers going through screening. The TSA has trained and deployed thousands of these officers, spending more than $900 million on this program since its inception in 2007. However, the Government Accountability Office has found there is no evidence to back up the claim that "behavioral indicators … can be used to identify persons who may pose a risk to aviation security." We are joined by Cora Currier, staff reporter for The Intercept, whose new article co-written with Jana Winter, is "TSA’s Secret Behavior Checklist To Spot Terrorists."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We turn to an exclusive new report by The intercept. Next time you are at an airport you might not want to gaze down at your feet. But, also be careful not to stare at anyone with your eyes wide open. That’s because both of these behaviors are listed on a suspicious signs checklist used by the Transportation Security Administration or TSA. The Intercept obtained the confidential document from a source concerned about the quality of the program. The document shows how the TSA identifies potential terrorists based on behaviors that it thinks indicate stress or deception, including fidgeting, whistling, and throat clearing. The checklist is part of the TSA’s controversial program known as the Screening of Passengers by Observation Techniques, or SPOT program. It employs specially trained officers, known as behavior detection officers, to watch and interact with passengers going through screening. For more, we are joined by Cora Currier, staff reporter for The Intercept. Her new article is co-written with Jana Winter. It’s called "Exclusive: TSA’s Secret Behavior Checklist to Post Terrorists." Welcome to Democracy Now! So, explain what this list actually — what the behaviors are that the TSA are watching out for?
CORA CURRIER: So, we obtained a 92-point checklist that has a — it’s divided into a section on initial observation, which is used by officers who are sort of looking at passengers approaching the screening area. And then a second category of signs of deception, which is used when they sort of pull someone aside for further screening. And finally, might even use to refer them to law enforcement. The behaviors on this list range from the mind numbingly obvious, I mean things that you think that the TSA might have sort of a mustachio cartoon villain in mind, whistling when you approach the security screening area, rubbing or wringing of hands, appears to be in disguise was my personal favorite. And then other of them are so broad as like to apply to almost anybody you could imagine, yawning, as you mentioned.
AMY GOODMAN: And why yawning?
CORA CURRIER: We don’t know. This is supposed to be one of — exaggerated yawning is one of the characteristic that they have decided could be a sign of deception. Throat clearing, strong body odor was one of them. Inappropriate dress for the location, face flushed, nervous, running late for a flight. I mean, these are things that could apply — any one of us could look like at any given time we’re in an airport.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, what is the ACLU and the New York Civil Liberties Union suing over?
CORA CURRIER: So, they asked, last fall, for a bunch of documents specifically related to this program through a Freedom of Information Act request. My understanding is the TSA sort of stonewalled on it, so they are suing to get those documents released. They’ve asked for the science behind this program, the training lists, things like this checklist, basically, and also any information about how this program has — handles racial profiling, the potential for racial profiling or incidents of racial profiling. Because, that is really one of the main concerns about it, is that it is just a smokescreen for pulling over people of certain ethnicities or minorities.
AMY GOODMAN: The Transportation Security Administration, or TSA, has defended its conduct, saying it is taking a "common sense approach." In a statement to The Intercept, the TSA said "no single behavior alone will cause a traveler to be referred to additional screening or will result in a call to a law enforcement officer." The TSA also denied claims of racial-profiling saying quote "officers are trained and audited to ensure referrals for additional screening are based only on observable behaviors and not race or ethnicity." Is there a scientific basis for the list of behaviors they are screening for?
CORA CURRIER: So, there is a sort of small minority of researchers who believe you can use these sort of micro facial indicators or body language indicators to decide if somebody is being deceptive or has a plot, something up their sleeve. But the government accountability office did a meta-review of scientific literature specifically related to this program and found that humans were, the consensus seems to be that humans are really bad at determining just by these kind of behavioral indicators whether someone is lying. They did not find that there was science to back up that you could use these detectors to determine whether someone was being deceptive or carrying something out.
AMY GOODMAN: How much has the TSA spent on this program?
CORA CURRIER: At least $1 billion to date. In 2013, when the GAO put out their report, it was upwards of $900 million. It’s been going since 2007.
AMY GOODMAN: Two black women told Reuters the TSA agreed to stop screening of black female passengers based on their sister-locks hairstyles.
CORA CURRIER: There’s been a lot of reports of TSA officers coming forward and saying that this is just — that they look for particular minorities, that they go through — that this list is just used as a pretense. And that is what one of our sources told us. He called it a license to harass.
AMY GOODMAN: So, what you say to those who say now you have gotten this list — was a classified?
CORA CURRIER: It’s not classified, no. It had not been released, but it is not classified.
AMY GOODMAN: It hadn’t been released, and people will know, terrorists will know what not to do.
CORA CURRIER: I mean, I just — I challenge anybody not to blink or look down or look straight ahead or do any of the number of behaviors that are supposedly suspicious on this list. And when you look at some of the recent high-profile things, there was a man in Louisiana who attacked the TSA screening area with a machete. I mean, you probably don’t need a list to look for someone like that.
AMY GOODMAN: How does this search for these kind of "suspicious behaviors" relate to the no-fly list?
CORA CURRIER: So there’s — we don’t know what the direct relation between the two is. This program is obviously used to refer people to law enforcement to refer to people for further screening. The whole the no-fly list selection process is itself shrouded in so much secrecy that it is really hard to say how this plays into it, but, there is very likely a connection between the two.
AMY GOODMAN: And how many people are on the no-fly list, or are there a number of them?
CORA CURRIER: There —
AMY GOODMAN: A number of lists?
CORA CURRIER: I think there’s several different ones, I don’t have the number off the top of my head.
AMY GOODMAN: So, further, what has the government said to you when you try to get their response?
CORA CURRIER: They wouldn’t confirm or comment on the particular list. They, as you said, they have a commonsense approach, that there’s no — they push back on the idea that they look for people who are just stressed or late for flights, that this is not, that it’s more commonsense than it looks on paper. What is funny is they were sort of denying what it looks like on its face, that it’s more practical than that. And they say they use a sort of layered approach. And again, some of the factors on here seem like really commonsense things to look for — somebody acting suspiciously. But, the vast majority of them are really asinine.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you for being with us, Cora Currier, staff reporter for The intercept, her new article, co-written with Jana Winter, "Exclusive: TSA’s Secret Behavior Checklist to Post Terrorists." We will link to it at democracynow.org. That does it for our show.
The U.S. Army says it plans to charge Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl with desertion and the rare charge of misbehavior before the enemy after he was held and tortured in Taliban captivity for five years when he left his base in Afghanistan in 2009. He was freed in 2014 in exchange for five Taliban prisoners held for years at Guantánamo Bay. Now Bergdahl’s defense could center on an Army probe that found he walked off his post in an attempt to reach another U.S. base to report on wrongdoing in his unit. An earlier military report found Bergdahl likely walked away on his own free will, but stopped short of finding that he planned to permanently desert U.S. forces. We get the details from his lawyer, Eugene Fidell, a lecturer at Yale Law School and co-founder and former president of the National Institute of Military Justice.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to developments in the case against Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, who was held in Taliban captivity for five years after leaving his base in Afghanistan in 2009. He was freed last year in exchange for five Taliban prisoners who were held for years at Guantánamo. Then, last week, the Army announced plans to charge him with one count of desertion and one count of misbehavior before the enemy. If convicted, he faces life in prison. Bergdahl’s defense against a desertion charge could center on an Army investigation’s finding he walked off his post in an attempt to reach another U.S. base to report on wrongdoing in his unit. And that he did not plan to permanently desert.
The investigation has not been released, but CNN cites senior defense officials who say Bergdahl claimed to be concerned about problems with order and discipline at his post in Paktika Province in Afghanistan and also had concerns about, "leadership issues" at his base. The next step in Bergdahl’s case is an Article 32 hearing, a procedure similar to a grand jury.
For more we turn to Eugene Fidell, the lawyer for Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl. He joins us from Yale University, where he is the Florence Rogatz Visiting Lecturer in Law at Yale Law school. Fidell is a cofounder and former president of the National Institute of Military Justice. Welcome to Democracy Now!. Can you talk about the charges against your client, Bowe Bergdahl?
EUGENE FIDELL: Well, there are two charges, Amy, one, as you mentioned, is a charge of desertion, the other is a very unusual — let me back up. There’s a lot of cases of desertion and they are typically handled at a very low level in the military justice system. The other charge is misbehavior before the enemy in that he left and, that is the gist of it. It’s simply that he left and it was in a battle zone. At least that is the allegation. Those cases are extremely rare. It’s under a statute that is kind of a museum piece that dates back to the very early days of the republic.
There’s probably something like it in the Articles of War George III signed in 1774. It’s a very, very rare charge and frankly, I have been doing this since 1969, I can’t remember a case of an actual prosecution for that charge.
AMY GOODMAN: And I mean, explain what it means, "misbehavior before the enemy."
EUGENE FIDELL: Well, typically, the charge entails things like dropping your rifle or running away from a battle, this kind of thing. What the Army seems to have done here, is gotten creative and turned it into a sort of catch-all where they can take any other offense, in this case an offense of desertion which they are also charging, and sort of escalate the whole thing into world war III by calling it misbehavior before the enemy.
AMY GOODMAN: Eugene Fidell, you wrote in your memo about the army’s report on Bowe Bergdahl, "While hedging its bets, the report basically concludes that Sergeant Bergdahl did not intend to remain away from the army permanently, as classic long desertion requires it also concludes that his specific intent was to bring what he thought were disturbing circumstances to the attention of the nearest general officer." Can you explain this?
EUGENE FIDELL: Well, I’m not going to any more detail than the letter I sent in the letter to General Milly, the Commander of U.S. forces command, early in this month. The reason for that is, I think all of this is going to come out, has got to come out. And I want to make one point if you do not mind, Amy, the army has a substantial report for a Major General Kenneth Dahl, who investigated this thing to the hilt. He had something like 22 investigators going around for months and months, talking to everybody, examining all possible documents. The gist of what he said is, you can infer from what i wrote in my letter to General Milley. And frankly, I think it’s incumbent on the army to release General Dahl’s report.
Obviously, there are some health-related things that are in the report and Privacy Act stuff but, basically, the report ought to be out there so the American public can look at it and not be subject to the kind of rumor mongering that has been going crazy lately.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to read from Bergdahl’s own description of his time held by the Taliban. Quote, "I was kept in constant isolation with little to no understanding of time, through periods of constant darkness, periods of constant light, and periods of completely random flickering of light and absolutely no understanding of anything that was happening beyond the door i was held behind." Bergdahl also wrote that for years he was chained on all fours, or locked in a cage, and that the sores on his wrists and ankles from the shackles grew infected. He said he was malnourished and quote, "my body started a steady decline and constant internal sickness that would last through the final year." How has his five-year imprisonment been described by the military?
EUGENE FIDELL: They haven’t really described it. In fact, General Dahl’s report, which I referred to before, which the summary of it, Amy, is 57 pages long, single spaced as I recall. The summary spent something like 8 words on his treatment while he was in captivity. So, the Army has not described this in any detail. They are more interested in delving into offenses from the 18th century.
AMY GOODMAN: And so, how do you think that should be weighed in what will happen to him, the fact that he was a prisoner of war for five years, where held, where he was tortured, where he largely sick during that time and attempted to escape, Sgt. Bergdahl writes, in his own words, 12 times?
EUGENE FIDELL: Oh, I think that’s entitled to very considerable weight in the broad judgement as to how these charges should be disposed of. This is the broadest kind of discretion that the military knows. You’d have to have a heart of stone not to take this kind of experience, prolonged for five years, into account. People in the military are human beings, they are not automatons. And I expect and hope that those who are ultimately going to have to make a decision here as to what should be done — and an article 32 investigation doesn’t commit anybody to anything — will take this into account.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to play a comment from Lieutenant Colonel Michael Waltz, who says he led the search Bowe Bergdahl. This is a clip from his interview on Fox News last week, starting with host Sean Hannity.
SEAN HANNITY: I know we lost at least six soldiers — is six the number — and how many others were injured in the search for him?
LT. COL. MICHAEL WALTZ: The disturbing thing is that the Taliban knew that we were pulling out all the stops to look for him and were feeding false information into our informant network. So, they were baiting us into ambushes. In one case they baited us into a house rigged to explode, thank god it didn’t. But, soldiers died looking for him.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Lieutenant Colonel Michael Waltz. But, Eugene Fidell, you’ve said the Army’s report found no evidence that any soldier died searching for Sergeant Bergdahl.
EUGENE FIDELL: Right, well, first, the comment Mr. Waltz, who I believe was a junior officer in Afghanistan, also has on his webpage that he worked for Vice President Cheney, just for background. The Army said in its report what I said in my letter to General Milley. I think it is incumbent on the Army to make the facts known. I also am concerned that something that Mr. Waltz may have said might be classified. I assume somebody will watch this and make a determination on that.
AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean?
EUGENE FIDELL: That’s about all I want to say on that. I am not going to go any further.
AMY GOODMAN: Eugene Fidell, you wrote in your memo that the Army’s report recommends that Sgt. Bergdahl be stripped of his status as a missing-captured prisoner of war. You note, "International humanitarian law does not distinguish between personnel who have deserted and personnel who have not." You also cite everyone from Bergdahl’s captors to President Obama calling him a prisoner of war. This is Obama announcing Bowe Bergdahl’s release last June.
PRES. BARACK OBAMA: We’re committed to winding down the war in Afghanistan and we are committed to closing Gitmo. But, we also made an ironclad commitment to bring our prisoners of war home. That’s who we are as Americans. It’s a profound obligation within our military and today, at least in this instance, it’s a promise we have been able to keep.
AMY GOODMAN: The significance Eugene Fidell?
EUGENE FIDELL: That quote speaks for itself. Everybody in the picture understood that sergeant Bergdahl was a prisoner of war. The International Law of Armed Conflict does not distinguish between prisoners of war who are — or prisoners who are absent without leave versus prisoners who are not absent without leave. The status is precisely the same under international humanitarian law, as it’s called. And I think it is preposterous that the Army at this late date might even consider changing his status. After all, he was locked up by the other side in the most horrible conditions. Conditions that none of us would possibly ever want to endure, and he endured them for five years. To his credit, I think, he did what soldiers are supposed to do when they are taken prisoner and attempted to escape. He attempted to escape something like 12 times, starting from the very beginning. The Taliban punished him severely when they caught him again and again.
AMY GOODMAN: Eugene Fidell, you are Bow Bergdahl’s attorney. Presumably you’ve been negotiating back and forth with the Army as he’s held at —
EUGENE FIDELL: Stop right there. Stop right there. We’ve had no negotiations with the Army, and suggestions to that effect are simply false. Also, suggestions that people died searching for him are false. That’s what the Army concluded, that there was no evidence that anyone died searching for him.
AMY GOODMAN: So, were you surprised when these, and are they called charges, came out? I mean he’s still has to go before an Article 32 hearing.
EUGENE FIDELL: No, I can’t say I was surprised to see a desertion charge because that’s, you know, been in the wind. I don’t want to say too much about more about what I’ve already written about Gen. Dahl’s report, But, no, the desertion charge did not come as a surprise to me. The, what I’ll call the George III charge did come as a surprise to me. Where that came from I have no idea, and I’ll be interested in finding out where it came from.
AMY GOODMAN: When you said, stop right there, what’s the implication of saying you might have spoken to the Army?
EUGENE FIDELL: Well, I just think that there’s a lot of people out there who are, I won’t say economical with the truth — they are making things up. For example, it was said months and months ago that I had been handed a charge sheet. I think that was back in January. That was simply false, and someone in the Army was leaking thinks, presumably with the view to — manipulating this controversy. Similarly, the notion that we have been negotiating and the Army has been, you know, bringing pressure on the defense, completely made up. That’s all I need to say about that. People will say — and Amy, if you can humor me for one more second. The other day I had occasion for some reason to be interviewed by Russian television on the subject. I guess they wanted to score points against our country. And I took the opportunity to deliver a sermon to the audience about the virtues of the First Amendment. I’m a kind of First Amendment guy. So, you know, what people say, god bless them — there’s politics, unfortunately, wrapped up in this case based on nothing that my client has done, but entirely extraneous considerations. That is the strength of our democratic system. Let the chips fall where they may. What I don’t want, however, is for my client to be made a chew toy by anybody while they are trying to score points against the President of the United States or others.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think the second charge that is so rare, misbehavior before an enemy, that where he could face life in prison beyond the five years of captivity that he faced in Afghanistan, might be brought to push him into a plea deal, and is a plea deal possible in the military?
EUGENE FIDELL: Well, pretrial agreements are, of course, possible and in many cases are resolved on the basis of a pretrial agreement. In terms of what the motivation was behind that drafter of that second charge, sticking it onto the charge sheet, and getting somebody to sign the charge sheet, you’d have to ask them.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think Bowe Bergdahl can get a fair trial?
EUGENE FIDELL: I’m very concerned about the barrage of hostility that has inundated the country for basically since last year and continuing up to the present instant. The military has a replica of the jury system, basically juries consist of active duty personnel that can be enlisted. Typically they are officers. And I think the military is going to have a very, very hard time, if this case goes to a trial, assembling a panel of jurors or members, as they’re called, who can truthfully say that they have not been exposed to or some manner influenced by the barrage of really unprecedented hostility that’s been thrown at my client.
AMY GOODMAN: Eugene Fidell, I want to thank you for being with us, lawyer for Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl. Eugene Fidell is joining us from Yale University where he is the Florence Rogatz Visiting Lecturer in Law at Yale Law School. He is also
Cofounder and former president of the National Institute of Military Justice. Right now, Sergeant Bergdahl is at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. When we come back, we’re going to speak with Matthew Hoh, who has just written a piece for Politico headlined "Stop Persecuting Bowe Bergdahl. He and his parents have suffered enough–like all of us veterans." Stay with us.
With Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl facing charges of desertion and misbehavior before the enemy, the case has revived controversy over how the Obama administration won his release in exchange for five Taliban detainees held at Guantánamo Bay. On Friday, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee asked the White House for documents related to the swap. Others have raised different questions over the Bergdahl case, including whether he is being unfairly targeted while the military and political leaders who mishandled the Afghan war evade scrutiny. We speak with Matthew Hoh, a former Marine and State Department official who resigned in protest from his post in Afghanistan over U.S. policy in September 2009.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: "Hero of War," Tim McllRath of the band Rise Against. The video has been viewed online more than 25 million times. This is Democracy Now!, Democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. As we continue to look at the case of Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, who was held in Taliban captivity for 5 years after leaving his base in Afghanistan in 2009. He was freed last year in exchange for five Taliban prisoners who’d been held for years at Gauantánamo. Last week, the Army announced it plans to charge sergeant Bergdahl with one count of desertion and one count of misbehavior before the enemy. If convicted, he faces life in prison. The tough military charges Bergdahl faces have revived controversy over how the Obama administration won his release in exchange for 5 Taliban prisoners. Fox News reports at least three of the five have since attempted to reconnect with their former terrorist networks.
On Friday, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee asked the White House for documents related to the swap. State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki defended the trade during an interview on Fox News.
JEN PSAKI: Was it worth it? Absolutely, we have a commitment to our men and women serving overseas — or serving in our military, defending our national security everyday that we are going to do everything to bring them home if we can. And that’s what we did in this case.
AMY GOODMAN: Others have raised different questions as Sergeant Bergdahl faces charges of desertion and the very rare charge of misbehavior before the enemy. Reporter Peter Maass wrote for The Intercept, "What punishment should Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl receive for allegedly deserting his post in Afghanistan? The answer comes by asking another question, what punishment has been handed out to American generals and politicians whose incompetence caused far more bloodshed and grief than anything Bergdahl did?" Well, for more we are joined by Matthew Hoh, a former marine and state department official who resigned in protest from his post in Afghanistan over U.S. policy in September 2009.
Prior to his assignment in Afghanistan, he served in Iraq. He is now a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy. Last June he wrote a piece for Politico headlined "Stop Persecuting Bowe Bergdahl, He and his parents have suffered enough–like all of us veterans." Matthew Hoh now joins us from Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome back to Democracy Now! So, Matthew, we haven’t spoken since the Army has charged Bowe Bergdahl with these two counts of desertion and this rare charge that we were just speaking with Eugene Fidell, his attorney, about, desertion before the enemy. Your response?
MATTHEW HOH: Well, good morning Amy, and thank you for having me back on. My response is along the same lines that I have been saying for almost 10 months now. Give this time, no rush to judgment. Why are we vilifying and crucifying a young man who suffered at the hands of the enemy for five years? And even more so, persecuting his family as well. Just to, really, score political points. With regard to the most recent developments with sergeant Bergdahl, the most important aspect of all this is the fact, as Mr. Fidell was just explaining, the Army’s investigation has found that sergeant Bergdahl did not intend to desert permanently. He didn’t intend to quit the war, quit the Army, or join the Taliban or walk to China, but that his intention was to try and get to another base to report some kind of wrongdoing, something disturbing to a senior military officer or to an American general. Something had bothered his conscience. Something had bothered his standards as a soldier that he felt that this was the only option he had, to travel overland, admittedly a pretty crazy option, and obviously one that did not work out so well as everyone knows. But, that is what the Army has found. That this is not a case of classic desertion but of a young man who was disturbed by something, possibly war crimes, some kind of wrongdoing, something immoral, maybe, and that he took it upon himself to report this to his senior officers because he had no faith in the soldiers he was stationed with anymore.
AMY GOODMAN: According to the book "Military Justice: A Guide to the Issues," by Lawrence Morris, Article 99, misbehavior before the enemy, essentially criminalizes a soldier’s inability to overcome fear to carry out their duty. Do you think Bowe Bergdahl was afraid?
MATTHEW HOH: No. Honestly not, Amy, if he was willing to communicate with his squad leader, his team leader about this before hand. And then actually carry out this action. If we go back to information we know about this already, most of which comes from the Rolling Stone article published by Michael Hastings and Matt Farwell, we see that he actually asked his team leader what would happen to me if I went off base with my weapons and other serialized gear — so, my night vision goggles and other equipment the Army has issued to me. The team leader said you will get in trouble. And so, that is, to me, the reason why he went off base without that equipment. This was a plan he had. He obviously felt that he had no other possibility, no other option. So, for him to do that, to go overland in eastern Afghanistan to try and report this disturbing circumstances as the Army says he was trying to do, required quite a bit of bravery. With regard to this misbehavior before the enemy charge, a lot of us who are in the veteran community have never heard of that before. Obviously it is an actual part of the uniform code of military justice, but it is something that is extremely rare. And if you google it — I invite people to go and google it — you’ll see there are nine sections to this possible charge. And really it’s a catchall. If somebody does not have their boots tied properly while in their fighting position, that could be construed as misbehavior before the enemy. It really is a catchall that can be applied really to any circumstances. So, certainly i would imagine that if you were to say like he left the base, well, he left the base without permission that is misbehavior before the enemy so, I guess that you could say that he is in violation of that.
AMY GOODMAN: This is a clip of Bergdahl’s father, Bob, speaking in a video produced last year by The Guardian.
BOB BERGDAHL: We teach two generations, at least, of children in this country that we had zero tolerance for violence but we can occupy two countries in asia for almost a decade. It’s schizophrenic. No wonder this younger generation is struggling psychologically with the duplicity of this, the use of violence. The purpose of wars is to destroy things. You can’t use it to govern.
AMY GOODMAN: You are friendly with the family, how did you come to know the family, Matthew? And what about what Bob is saying here, Bergdahl’s father?
MATTHEW HOH: I got to know Bob via Twitter, and we developed a friendship talking on the phone or skyping. And then we actually had dinner together, along with — the first time I met Jani as well, Bowe’s mom — just a few nights before Bowe was released. So, I think it was a Thursday evening we had dinner together in Washington, D.C. You know, Amy, like a lot of guys in these wars, you’ve seen a lot of suffering, a lot of grief, but, I had never seen anything like I saw in sergeant Bergdahl’s mothers eyes that night. This is a woman whose son was being held as a prisoner of war who was, at that point I don’t think they understood the horrors that which he was going through in terms of the constant psychological and physical torture he endured, but, they certainly knew he was suffering, and they were unsure if they would ever see him again. And I had never seen anything like that in a mother’s eyes. Like I said, I have been to a lot of funerals I’ve seen a lot of suffering and grief of mothers who have buried their sons way too early, but I had never seen anything like I had seen in Jani’s eyes that night. I think that is what is so touching about what Bob is saying in those comments. These are two people, these are a husband and wife who raised two children, raised them well, raised them in the spirit of their church, who had their son join the Army, and their suffering has been unreal, unknown to really anyone in this country.
You have to go back to the Vietnam era to understand the suffering that they must have endured in the sense of will we ever see you sons again, will we ever — what torture must they be experiencing. But, what Bob says about the duplicity of it, the duplicity of this nation, the fact that in church we can bemoan violence, we cite we are a Christian nation, but, we regularly ignore Jesus’ call to peace while we maintain 600 military bases around the world, while we occupy countries, while we conduct wars, while we bomb nations, while we support other nations that bomb nations. This past week with Saudi Arabia’s and other nations’ attacks into Yemen that is fully supported by the United States. We are providing targeting information, in-flight refueling, logistic support. So, i think Bob’s words carry a lot of weight from the kind of man he is, the principled man he is. His experiences as a father who sent his son to war as well then too as a man of the church and a man who has seen this both through a philosophical level and from a practical level.
AMY GOODMAN: In 2012, the Rolling Stone magazine published a series of e-mails from Bowe Bergdahl to his father Bob. This was the piece you referenced with the late Michael Hastings. Three days before he was captured, Bowe wrote, "the future is too good to waste on lies and life is way too short to care for the damnation of others, as well as to spend it helping fools with their ideas that are wrong. I have seen their ideas and I am ashamed to even be American. The horror of the self-righteous arrogance that they thrive in. It is all revolting. I’m sorry for everything here. These people need help, yet what they get is the most conceited country in the world telling them that they are nothing and that they are stupid, that they have no idea how to live." In that email, he also referred to seeing an Afghan child run over by a U.S. military vehicle. So, can you talk more about what he was trying to do? What we were discussing with Eugene Fidell, to report misdoing to a higher level general at another military post.
MATTHEW HOH: Yes, and again, this is not the defense team, this is not Sergeant Bergdahl saying what his intentions were, this was a team of, as Eugene Fidell explained, 22 investigators working for many months interviewing everyone involved to determine that he left his — Sergeant Bergdahl left his post to report disturbing circumstances which may have been wrongdoing, which may be related to the death of this child, which will most likely be related to his views of his unit, his shame at the actions he has seen there. So, we may have very possibly, this may be a story of a young man obeying his conscience, obeying the standards of the army and trying to tell the truth. Trying to report wrongdoing. Who then was captured en route to trying to — on his mission and then held in captivity for five years, tortured, and then come home to the most disgraceful and shameful attacks to score political points by the media, by politicians. And I will say that, while the Republicans tend to be leading these assaults against Sergeant Bergdahl, I’m not hearing a lot of Democratic voices and Democratic politician speaking in defense of this young man or his family. So, I think it’s shameful not just the attacks but also the silence that has occurred over his treatment; the lack of men and women willing to stand up and defend him in his family.
AMY GOODMAN: But —
MATTHEW HOH: Go ahead, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you finally, last week President Obama reversed course and announced he is going to keep nearly 10,000 troops in Afghanistan at least through the end of the year and downplayed the extension, saying it would be well worth it. I wanted to ask you Matthew, you quit over the war in Afghanistan — that was back in 2009, this is, what, six years later. It is the longest war in U.S. history. Your response?
MATTHEW HOH: Well, it is also, Amy, the most unpopular war in U.S. history. We see around four out of five Americans opposed to this war. As many americans think the war has been a mistake since 2001 as think it was worth it. And what we have seen occur in Afghanistan, and which was I thinks was really quite striking, Last week, President Ashraf Ghani, the new president of Afghanistan who stole his elections in such a manner that the ballots have never been released, we do not even know how many people voted in total the theft was so great in Afghanistan in those elections. He is surrounded by the same warlords drug lords that Hamid Karzai surrounded himself with. The Taliban is stronger than it’s ever been, record numbers of security forces and record numbers of civilians are killed every year. And the only thing that is doing well in Afghanistan is the drug trade, something that the Afghan government is involved in. Every year there are bumper crops of poppies in Afghanistan. So, somehow President Obama thinks that it is worthwhile to continue propping up this government while millions of Afghan people suffer. As I said, tens of thousands, the report is about — a recent report is that about a quarter million Afghans have died since 2001 because of this war. That President Obama somehow thinks it is worth it.
I think, while I don’t want to see Sergeant Bergdahl go to trial because of the toll that will take on him and his family, I would like to see a discussion about this war. I would like to see a more open dialogue about this war. And these platitudes and certitudes that come from our officials that this war was somehow worth it and that somehow we have achieved some level of security from it, I would like to see that debated in a formal setting and possibly, as a friend of mine described it, maybe Sergeant Bergdahl’s trial could turn into some type of Scopes Monkey trial for our foreign policy and our wars overseas.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Matthew Hoh, I want to thank you for being with us. And by the way, while Fox News had said, citing unnamed government officials, that three of the five prisoners released in exchange for Bergdahl had attempted to reach out to their former militant networks, a state department official disputed the account saying, "none of the five individuals has returned to the battlefield and none of the five have left Qatar. Since their transfer, many actions have been taken to restrict the actions of these individuals and they are all being closely monitored by the United States and Qatar." Matthew Hoh, thanks so much for being with us. Matthew Hoh is a former marine, state department official who resigned in protest of the war of Afghanistan in September 2009. Prior to his assignment in Afghanistan, he served in Iraq. He’s now a fellow at the Center for International Policy. We’ll link to your piece called "Stop Persecuting Bowe Bergdahl, He and his parents have suffered enough — like all of us veterans." When we come back, we’ll find out what is happening in Lausanne, Switzerland around the talks of a Iran nuclear deal. Stay with us.
Talks over a nuclear deal with Iran are in their final stages before Tuesday’s self-imposed deadline. Progress has been reported on several issues, including limiting centrifuges at Iran’s main nuclear facility to around 6,000. But Iran has reportedly backed off a key pledge to enrich its atomic fuel overseas. Iranian officials are said to have previously agreed to sending uranium stockpiles to Russia, but now want to keep the fuel inside the country. The demand could still be overcome by agreements on regular inspections and sufficiently diluting the fuel. If a preliminary deal is reached by Tuesday, a final agreement would follow by the end of June. From the Swiss city of Lausanne where the talks are underway, we are joined by Trita Parsi, founder and president of the National Iranian American Council.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Graham Nash, "Military Madness." Here on Democracy Now!, Democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we turn to talks over a nuclear deal with Iran which are in their final stages before Tuesday’s self imposed deadline. Progress has been reported on several issues, including limiting centrifuges at Iran’s main nuclear facility to around 6000. But, Iran has backed off a pledge to enrich its atomic fuel overseas. Iranian officials are said to have previously agreed to sending uranium stockpiles to Russia but now want to keep fuel inside Iran. The demand could still be overcome by agreements on regular inspections, and sufficiently diluting the fuel to ensure it cannot be used for a bomb. The talks continue in the Swiss town of Lausanne, today. If a preliminary deal is reached by Tuesday, a final agreement would follow by the end of June. For more, we go to Lausanne, where the talks are under way, to Trita Parsi, Founder and President of the National Iranian American Council. He is the author of "A Single Roll of the Dice: Obama’s Diplomacy with Iran." Can you tell us in this last 24 hours of the self-imposed deadline, where the talks stand and has Iran pulled back on one of the key negotiating points?
TRITA PARSI: Well, there’s a lot of brinkmanship going on right now, both from the Iranian side as well as from other sides in the negotiations. For instance, the Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov is concerned that he’s leaving Lausanne, but, that will be back if there is a deal. And this is also a way to put pressure, but this time on the Iranians. There is a lot of brinksmanship and there is an air of inevitability that there will be a deal, combined, paradoxically with the tremendous amount of uncertainty.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain the reports of what Iran has reversed on, this issue of sending the stockpile to russia. Explain what this is about.
TRITA PARSI: This is very critical, actually, because, if the Iranians retained the stockpile on their own soil, that dramatically changes the calculations when it comes to the breakout capability, which is the amount of time the Iranis would need in order to make a decision to build a bomb and actually have enough material for that bomb. So, this is a big announcement, or course. I think, at the end of the day, we should view it from the perspective that there is brinksmanship going on. I think the reason the Iranians are doing it is because of this. The Iranians have been, in general terms, accepting the demands the U.S. has asked of them. What they have not accepted is what the U.S. is offering in turn. And by sending this signal that they are walking back on something they essentially had accepted that they would give, they are essentially saying that they’re not getting enough in return from the U.S. and what they are referring to there, of course, is sanctions relief. So, if you want to deal without giving as much sanctions relief you are going to get less. But, at the end of the day, I think the Iranians will except shipping out part of that stockpile, at a minimum. But, only if they manage to get some of their demands met as well.
AMY GOODMAN: And right now, the Israeli Prime Minister, Netanyahu, says the deal that is about to be reached, and you know, it has been revealed that they were spying on the talks and then shared some of that with Republican lawmakers when Netanyahu came and addressed the Congress. The deal that is about to be reached is the worst one ever. Or the worst one that has been considered. Your response to this, Trita Parsi?
TRITA PARSI: Essentially, the Israeli Prime Minister admits that he was wrong in the past when he was extremely panicky and scare mongering, that he should have actually been more panicked about the situation. By now, this essentially is just background noise, because the Netanyahu government, because of the way they have acted, have made themselves outside players and quite un-influential on what is taking place right now. And in that sense, what they have done has been quite a disfavor to the Israeli state because they have been — there has been so much animosity against the Obama administration that they have essentially neutralized themselves.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Trita, you have just written a piece in The Atlantic, headlined, "Why Iran’s Supreme Leader Wants a Nuclear Deal," talking about the ayatollah. Why does he want one?
TRITA PARSI: I think what has been widely misunderstood in the U.S. in particular is that there’s been this belief that the supreme leader is an ideological opponent to a deal with the U.S. He is a skeptic without a doubt, but, part of the reason that I think he’s looking favorably towards a deal that he can live with right now is that it will be the first time in 200 years that the Iranians have had a major dispute with the West or the great powers and that it ended up with a negotiation in which the Iranians did not lose; it doesn’t mean that the U.S. lost. What he meant that Iran has managed to get the other great powers to the negotiating table and the end result is a mutual compromise rather than Iranian capitulation. That is, frankly, a first for any country in the middle east.
AMY GOODMAN: Trita Parsi, want to thank you very much for being with us. Founder and President of the National Iranian American Council, his book, "A Single Roll of the Dice: Obama’s Diplomacy with Iran." Again the deadline — self-imposed deadline is tomorrow and, of course, we will continue to follow developments. Trita was joining us by Democracy Now! video stream from Lausanne, Switzerland.
Headlines:
Iran Talks Enter Final Hours; Tehran Reportedly Withdraws Pledge to Enrich Overseas
Talks over a nuclear deal with Iran are in their final stages before Tuesday’s self-imposed deadline. Progress has been reported on several issues, including limiting centrifuges at Iran’s main nuclear facility to around 6,000. But Iran has reportedly backed off a key pledge to enrich its atomic fuel overseas. Iranian officials are said to have previously agreed to sending uranium stockpiles to Russia, but now want to keep the fuel inside the country. The demand could still be overcome by agreements on regular inspections and sufficiently diluting the fuel. The talks continue in the Swiss town of Lausanne. If a preliminary deal is reached by Tuesday, a final agreement would follow by the end of June.
Saudi Arabia: No End to Yemen Attack Until Houthis Surrender
Saudi Arabia says it will continue military strikes on Yemen until Houthi rebels lay down their arms. There is intense fighting in the coastal city of Aden, the stronghold of deposed President Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi. The Yemeni health ministry says at least 60 people have been killed and more than 500 wounded since the bombing began last week. On Sunday, the Saudi ambassador to the United States said his government had discussed the military campaign with the White House for months.
Adel Al Jubeir: "We have talked about the possible option of using force with the United States for many months. This option became much more serious in the last few weeks. And in the run up to making the decision and putting together the coalition, we were in constant touch with the White House and other U.S. government agencies about this. The decision to use military force was made at the last moment with because of the developments that were happening with regards to the Houthi’s potential occupation of Aden."
The Saudi government says it has not ruled out sending in ground troops if the Houthis refuse to surrender. Over the weekend, former President Ali Abdullah Saleh, a Houthi ally ousted in the 2011 Arab Spring, called for talks based on resuming a political transition. Saleh also proposed that neither he nor Hadi seek the presidency, but Hadi’s foreign minister dismissed the suggestion as "the talk of losers."
Arab League Agrees on Joint Military Force; Iraq Criticizes Yemen Strikes
The Saudi-led campaign comes as the Arab League has reportedly agreed to form a united military force. Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi said the regional army would stage around 40,000 troops to confront regional "challenges." But the force will reportedly be voluntary and only two nations have signed on so far. Iraq has expressed reservations about the ongoing strikes on Yemen. Speaking at the Arab League summit in Egypt, Iraqi President Fuad Masoum said the operation, "further complicates the conflicts between all parties, which will lead to more threats in the region. Foreign interventions will not help the Yemeni people."
2014 Was Deadliest Year for Palestinians Since 1967
New figures show Israel killed more Palestinians last year than in any other since occupying the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. The United Nations says Israel was responsible for more than 2,300 Palestinian deaths and 17,000 injuries in 2014. The bulk of the casualties came from Israel’s 50-day assault on the Gaza Strip, which killed at least 551 children. According to Defense for Children International-Palestine, Israeli forces have shot at least 30 children in the West Bank and East Jerusalem during protests in the first three months of this year.
France to Advance Israel-Palestine Measure at U.N., Testing U.S. Veto
France has announced plans to put forward a U.N. Security Council measure aimed at encouraging peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. French foreign minister Laurent Fabius said the measure would include "parameters" for negotiations, presumably based on an Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories.
Laurent Fabius: "France has been supporting a resolution of the U.N., defining the parameters and helping and accompanying the necessary negotiations between the two parties. We have not changed our mind. And in the coming weeks, in relation with the different parties, France will be part and parcel of proposing a resolution in the U.N."
The Obama administration has signaled it might not block a U.N. resolution in response to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s pre-election rejection of Palestinian statehood and his anti-Arab fear-mongering. In an apparent bid to reduce tensions with the United States, Netanyahu has announced he will release three months of tax revenue to the Palestinian Authority. Israel began withholding the funds in response to the Palestinian effort to join the International Criminal Court. Palestinian officials had recently warned the denial of their tax revenue threatened economic collapse.
Al-Qaeda Affiliate Helps Capture Syrian City of Idlib
A Syrian rebel coalition that includes an offshoot of al-Qaeda has captured the city of Idlib. It is the second major Syrian city to fall to the rebels after Raqqa, which is now under control of the self-proclaimed Islamic State. The rebel coalition in Idlib includes the Al-Nusra Front, al-Qaeda’s Syrian affiliate. Thousands of residents have reportedly fled the city out of fear of government reprisals as well as militant attacks on Assad regime supporters.
Tunisia Claims Death of Museum Attack Suspect as Tens of Thousands March
Tens of thousands of people marched against violent extremism in Tunis on Sunday following this month’s shooting rampage at the Bardo museum. The rally came one day after the Tunisian government said it killed an al-Qaeda member it identified as the attack’s main suspect.
Millions Vote in Nigerian Elections Amid Violence
Millions of people have voted in Nigeria’s presidential elections amidst new violence from the Boko Haram. More than a dozen people were killed in several attacks around the country. The race pits President Goodluck Jonathan against former military ruler Muhammadu Buhari. Final results are expected today.
Amid Protest, Indiana Gov. Evades Questions on anti-LGBT Law
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence is facing protests over a new measure that could sanction anti-LGBT discrimination. The so-called religious freedom law prevents state and local governments from imposing a "substantial burden" on those following their religious beliefs. That could allow businesses to refuse services to LGBT customers. On Saturday, thousands of people marched in Indianapolis calling for Pence’s resignation. Critics have called for a boycott, and some, including former NBA star Charles Barkley, are calling for the upcoming Final Four college basketball championship, to be moved out of state. Speaking to ABC News, Pence refused to answer whether it will be illegal to discriminate against LGBT people.
Gov. Mike Pence: "This is not about discrimination, this is about ...
empowering people."
George Stephanopoulos: But let me try to pin you down here though, on it, because your supporters say it would. And so yes or no, if a florist in Indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in Indiana?"
Gov. Mike Pence: "George, this is — this is where this debate has gone, with — with misinformation and frankly ..."
George Stephanopoulos: "It’s just a question, sir. Question, sir. Yes or no?"
Gov. Mike Pence: "Well — well, this — there’s been shameless rhetoric about my state and about this law and about its intention all over the Internet. People are trying to make it about one particular issue. And now you’re doing that, as well."
In response to the criticism, Pence says he will seek a new measure to "clarify the intent" of his new law, though he added that LGBT protections are "not on my agenda."
Schumer to Seek Democratic Senate Leadership to Replace Reid in 2016
Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada has announced he will not seek re-election next year. Reid has already endorsed New York Senator Chuck Schumer as his replacement. The choice of Schumer has drawn criticism from progressives over his close ties to Wall Street and hawkish stance on Iran.
Thousands Protest Cuomo Education Agenda in NYC
In New York City, thousands of teachers, parents and students rallied Saturday to call for Gov. Andrew Cuomo to boost funding for public education and curb the expansion of charter schools. The protest comes as New York State lawmakers consider Cuomo’s proposal to link more than $1 billion in school funding to a new teacher evaluation system which focuses heavily on standardized testing. The protesters say Cuomo’s policies are influenced by his billionaire backers. According to the The Hedge Clippers campaign, Cuomo has received nearly $5 million in donations from hedge fund managers, including major backers and founders of charter schools.
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