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Why Did the Former Republican Gov. of New Mexico Join the Libertarian Party to Run for President?
We are on the road in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where we speak with the state’s former two-term Republican Governor Gary Johnson about why he is now running for president as a Libertarian. He could become the only third-party candidate on the ballot in all 50 states this year. Johnson was also the Libertarian nominee for president in 2012, but was excluded from almost all of the presidential debates in 2012. He is now suing the Commission on Presidential Debates. Johnson discusses his platform and says, "We should have choices in our own lives … as long as those choices don’t adversely affect others." He notes he is pro-choice, and critical of U.S. military intervention and the use of drone strikes that have killed civilians and created "unintended consequences."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: "Alburquerque" by Neil Young. That’s right, and that’s where we are. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. We are broadcasting from Albuquerque, New Mexico, from New Mexico PBS. New Mexico heads to the polls on June 7th. We’re joined today by four guests here. Former New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson, running for president as a Libertarian, was the Libertarian nominee for president in 2012. He was a Republican during his two terms as governor of New Mexico from '95 to 2003. Diane Denish is also with us, former lieutenant governor of New Mexico, who has endorsed Hillary Clinton for president. Jerry Ortiz y Pino is a Democratic New Mexico state senator. He's endorsed Bernie Sanders. And we’re joined by New Mexico State Senator Sue Wilson Beffort, who’s a Republican, has yet to endorse a particular Republican presidential candidate.
I wanted to go to, well, former Governor Gary Johnson, why you switched. Do you feel the Republican Party left you?
GARY JOHNSON: Yeah, well, I think that the majority of Republicans are—I think the majority of people in this country are classic liberals, which is being fiscally—speaking with a broad brushstroke, being fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Well, that’s the camp that I’m in. I happen to believe that most Republicans are in that camp also. But having participated in the 2012 election cycle, there was not one social conservative on stage, really. It was—it was not—it was not fair. What was not fair was, was that to be in the debates, the networks would say that you had to be at 2 percent in A, B, C and D polls. Well, when you’re not in A, B and C poll, that means in D poll you have to be at 8 percent. And the Republican Party did not stand up for me in that situation. Right now, running for president of the United States as a Libertarian, there is no way that a third party wins. There’s no way that I have a chance of winning, unless I’m in the presidential debates. There is the possibility of being at 15 percent in the polls, though, if I’m in the polls, that I could be in the presidential debates.
AMY GOODMAN: You know, it’s interesting. Last night, Donald Trump was encouraging Bernie Sanders to run as an independent. He was saying that the Democrats have treated him very badly. How would that play out?
GARY JOHNSON: Well, something that’s not being understood right now is, is that to run as a third party starting today, you will not be on the ballot in all 50 states. There’s a good chance that, starting today, if you were to run as an independent, you wouldn’t be in enough states to mathematically be elected be elected president of the United States, meaning 270 electoral votes. I was in a national poll here three weeks ago, Monmouth poll, at 11 percent. The legitimacy of having my name in that poll is, as the presumptive Libertarian nominee—Libertarian candidate for president is going to be the only third party on the ballot in all 50 states. If I’m the Libertarian nominee, I’m going to be the only third party candidate on the ballot in all 50 states, something that’s really being glossed over right now by everybody.
AMY GOODMAN: Very quickly, run through your platform. What distinguishes you from the Democrats and the Republicans?
GARY JOHNSON: Well, that I do believe that government is too big. It spends too much money. It tries to do too much, so it taxes too much. And when it taxes too much, it takes money away from me that I could spend on myself, for my own individual freedom and liberty, and then going to individual freedom and liberty. Look, we should have choices in our own lives on everything it is that we do, as long as those choices don’t adversely affect others.
AMY GOODMAN: So, are you pro-choice?
GARY JOHNSON: I am pro-choice. And then, when it comes to terrorism, there is a very real terrorist threat. But the fact that we put boots on the ground, the fact that troops are on the ground, the fact that we drop bombs, the fact that we’re flying drones and killing thousands of innocent people, I think that that is making the situation worse, not better. The unintended consequence of taking out Saddam Hussein, who was the check when it came to Iran—we take out Saddam Hussein, we cut off the head of the hydra, and, lo and behold, now we have Iran to deal with. But it’s on and on and on, when it comes to the unintended consequences of our military interventions.
AMY GOODMAN: You’re part of a lawsuit going after the Presidential Debate Commission?
GARY JOHNSON: Yes, on the basis that—on the basis of the Sherman Act, that politics is a business, that Democrats and Republicans collude with one another to exclude everybody else. We think that the discovery phase of this lawsuit is going to provide national insight into just how rigged the system is. I come back to the fact that 50 percent of Americans right now declare themselves as independent. Where is that representation? ... Read More →
How Trump Became the GOP's "Presumptive Nominee" with Hate-Fueled Rhetoric & Attacks on Immigrants
Tuesday was another big night for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. In the Republican race, Trump won all five states up for grabs: Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Delaware. He won at least 54 percent in every state, capturing most of the delegates at stake. John Kasich placed second in four of the contests. Ted Cruz placed second in one. On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton beat Bernie Sanders in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut. Sanders took Rhode Island. We begin a roundtable discussion with four guests in New Mexico talking about Trump’s rise to become, as he now refers to himself, "the presumptive nominee." "We have seen guns coming up from Mexico," says Sue Wilson Beffort, a Republican member of the New Mexico state Senate, who has not endorsed any presidential candidate but shares Trump’s concerns about a "porous" border. "That’s all rhetoric," responds Diane Denish, former lieutenant governor of New Mexico, who has endorsed Clinton for president. "We are what America is going to be in a few years: We are a minority-majority state. … And the fact that Donald Trump wants to scare people and tell them that the people that are coming are murderers and rapists, … that is just not happening." We also speak with former New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson, who is running for president as a Libertarian and was the Libertarian nominee for president in 2012. He was a Republican during his two terms as governor of New Mexico from 1995 to 2003. And we’re joined by Jerry Ortiz y Pino, a Democratic member of the New Mexico state Senate, who has endorsed Bernie Sanders.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re broadcasting from Albuquerque, New Mexico, from New Mexico PBS. Tuesday was another big night for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. In the Republican race, Trump won all five states up for grabs: Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Delaware. He won at least 54 percent in every state, capturing most of the delegates up for grabs. In a victory speech in New York, Donald Trump called himself the presumptive nominee and took jabs at Hillary Clinton.
DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think the only card she has is the women’s card. She’s got nothing else going. And frankly, if Hillary Clinton were a man, I don’t think she’d get 5 percent of the vote. The only thing she’s got going is the women’s card. And the beautiful thing is, women don’t like her. OK? And look how well I did with women tonight.
AMY GOODMAN: John Kasich placed second in four of the contests. Ted Cruz placed second in one. Earlier this week, Kasich and Cruz announced plans to coordinate their campaigns in an effort to deny Trump from reaching the 1,237 delegates needed to win the primary on the—needed to win the nomination.
On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton beat Bernie Sanders in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut. Senator Sanders took Rhode Island. During her victory speech, Hillary Clinton reached out to Sanders supporters for their help in defeating the Republicans in November.
HILLARY CLINTON: In this election, we will have to stand together and work hard to prevail against candidates on the other side, who would threaten all those rights and pit Americans against each other. They would make it harder to vote, not easier. They would deny women the right to make our own reproductive healthcare decisions. They would round up—they would round up millions of hard-working immigrants and deport them. They would demonize and discriminate against hard-working, terror-hating Muslim Americans, who we need in the fight against radicalization. And both of the top candidates in the Republican Party deny climate change even exists. Now, the other day, Mr. Trump accused me of playing the, quote, "woman card."
CLINTON SUPPORTERS: Boo!
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, if fighting for women’s healthcare and paid family leave and equal pay is playing the woman card, then deal me in!
AMY GOODMAN: While the Clinton camp is now saying it’s virtually impossible for Bernie Sanders to catch up in the delegate race for the Democratic nomination, Sanders maintained Tuesday he will make the strongest candidate in November.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: We were in New York state last week. Three million people in New York state could not vote because they were independents. Well, you know what? Those folks and independents all over this country will be voting in November for the next president of the United States. And in most cases, we win the independent vote by a two-to-one margin.
AMY GOODMAN: To make sense of Tuesday’s results and the race going forward, we’re joined by four guests here in New Mexico, which will hold its own primary on June 7th. New Mexico, if it seceded from the United States, some say, it would be the third largest nuclear power in the world. New Mexico is also one of the poorest states in the country, and it’s one of just four majority-minority states, where the majority of the state’s residents are people of color.
Joining us now are former New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson. He’s now running for president as a Libertarian and was the Libertarian nominee for president in 2012. He was a Republican during his two terms as governor of New Mexico from 1995 to 2003.
Diane Denish is the former lieutenant governor of New Mexico, who’s endorsed Hillary Clinton for president.
Jerry Ortiz y Pino is a Democratic member of the New Mexico state Senate, who’s endorsed Bernie Sanders.
And Sue Wilson Beffort is a Republican member of the New Mexico state Senate, who has not endorsed any presidential candidate yet.
We welcome you all to Democracy Now! Let’s go to former Governor Gary Johnson first, to—can you respond to what’s called the Acela primaries in the Northeast, the states that Donald Trump swept? You’re a former Republican governor. Your thoughts?
GARY JOHNSON: Well, I just think he is going to get the nomination. I think he’s going to get the nomination, and I think he’s the most polarizing figure among Republicans. I think he alienates over half of Republicans. And I know you’re asking me for my thoughts on Trump, but I think Hillary really is in the same category, that she is very polarizing and that, arguably, we have the two most polarizing figures in American politics today, they’re going to be the nominees. And when 50 percent of Americans right now are saying that they’re independent, well, at the end of the day, maybe the two of them represent 30 percent of the electorate.
AMY GOODMAN: Sue Wilson Beffort, your thoughts on what just took place, not only last night, Donald Trump taking five states, but also the deal being worked out in New Mexico and other states, that Kasich could take New Mexico and Ted Cruz could take other states? Your thoughts about this?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Well, my sense was that Trump was going to take those states, had that not happened. And yet I think that the people spoke when they expressed disdain for a deal, I can imagine, if I was supporting either Trump or Kasich and then all of a sudden I heard that they were not going to be running in my state. And so, these types of maneuvers or shenanigans or whatever, I think the people are expressing, with the Trump vote, that they want access to electing their president. They want to have that first vote. They do not want delegates elected, such as Colorado, where the people didn’t even get their first vote. And so, I think that we’re seeing this type of reaction that really, I think, is earmarking a brand-new style in politics.
AMY GOODMAN: What do you think of Donald Trump?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: I think that Donald Trump, unlike Secretary Clinton—I think that Donald Trump is truly a nonpolitician. He has become one very quickly. And I think that the media, in particular, has been very against his candidacy, and therefore the negative questions that have been proposed to him right out of the shoot, I think, have caused some negative reactions for the way that he answered those questions. And I would speak in particular about the issue of women. I thought that Megyn Kelly’s question was slanted and biased and actually untrue. He did not say what she indicated about women. He was referring only to one spat that he had with a female comedian. And so, I thought that that was an inappropriate question for a first question for the whole country, to say this is our president—is the female issue the most important thing that this world is facing, with al-Qaeda and ISIS and the economy the way it was? I just thought that that was a very targeted, very negative question that really was formalized to back him in that corner.
AMY GOODMAN: Diane Denish, your thoughts on this? You are the former lieutenant governor under Governor Richardson here. You ran for governor. You were defeated by the current governor, Susana Martinez. Your thoughts on Donald Trump on the issue of women?
DIANE DENISH: Well, he has a long history of saying terrible things about women. And while, in agreement with Sue Beffort, there’s some very much more important issues, women, I believe, are going to flock to Hillary Clinton in droves. She’s put together a very diverse coalition of voters. If you look at Pennsylvania and Maryland last night, African Americans, women voted for her in 65 percent or more numbers across—and that’s happening across the country. Women understand when a man uses language like code language and says things about a woman’s looks, trying to position her. Hillary Clinton has proved over the years she has the experience and the temperament and the qualifications. I actually heard a Trump spokesman last night say, "No one really goes into the job of president ready to do the job." Well, I beg your pardon. Hillary Clinton comes to the job with foreign policy, domestic experience and has been tested over 25 years against the most negative language in the country, and she’s ready to do the job. So, I think Donald Trump has—will ignite the women’s vote in favor of Hillary Clinton.
AMY GOODMAN: State Senator Sue Wilson Beffort, the comment you were referring to, the question of Megyn Kelly’s during one of the debates, she said, when it comes to women, you’ve called them "fat pigs," "dogs," "slobs" and "disgusting animals." I mean, she was quoting him.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Yeah, I disagree with that statement in the plurality of the way that she questioned him. He was referring to a spat that he had, I think with Rosie [O’Donnell], or whomever it was, in a singular situation. And I would just like to say that I think that we’re going to see that women see through a lot of what’s been happening, the veil that has put on Mr. Trump in this election. And I think you’re going to see a lot of women saying all the things that he stands for. They want safety. They want jobs. They want all the things that he stands for. And I would expect that in his own company, that you would see that he really has honored women and has moved them up in high positions. And I had just not heard those things about him prior to that statement. And again, I go back to—that was not what you ask a presidential candidate in the first debate.
AMY GOODMAN: I guess the suggestion was that’s not what a president sounds like. I think each of those were referring to different incidents. But let me ask you something else that has concerned many people, and it was that moment in February when Donald Trump came under criticism for wavering on whether or not he wants the support of the former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke. He was speaking on CNN with Jake Tapper. Trump refused to disavow Duke’s support or the support of other white supremacists. Let’s just play it for a moment.
DONALD TRUMP: Well, just so you understand, I don’t know anything about David Duke. OK? I don’t know anything about what you’re even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacists. So, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know—did he endorse me, or what’s going on, because, you know, I know nothing about David Duke. I know nothing about white supremacists. And so, when you’re asking me a question, that I’m supposed to be talking about people that I know nothing about.
JAKE TAPPER: But I guess the question from the Anti-Defamation League is—even if you don’t know about their endorsement, there are these groups and individuals endorsing you. Would you just say, unequivocally, you condemn them, and you don’t want their support?
DONALD TRUMP: Well, I have to look at the group. I mean, I don’t know what group you’re talking about. You wouldn’t want me to condemn a group that I know nothing about. I’d have to look. If you would send me a list of the groups, I will do research on them, and certainly I would disavow if I thought there was something wrong.
JAKE TAPPER: The Ku Klux Klan?
DONALD TRUMP: But you may have groups in there that are totally fine, and it would be very unfair. So give me a list of the groups, and I’ll let you know.
JAKE TAPPER: OK, I mean, I’m just talking about David Duke and the Ku Klux Klan here, but...
DONALD TRUMP: I don’t know any—honestly, I don’t know David Duke. I don’t believe I’ve ever met him.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that was Donald Trump talking to Jake Tapper on CNN. Your response to that, Sue Wilson Beffort?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: You know, again, Mr. Trump has not been a politician. He has not been used to, what I would say, "gotcha" questions that many politicians that have been very carefully coached over the years know how to react to press and that sort of thing. I think the name of—
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, he is very quick on his feet. He does respond quickly.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: He is. He is. But I think that the name of the group that was mentioned, not the David Duke name, but the name of the group, I probably wouldn’t have known what that group was, either, if I was just asked on the side now what—if he was—if he was probably better prepared, he would have handled that question better.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, Jake Tapper did say to him, "I’m talking about the Ku Klux Klan."
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: So, let me ask Jerry Ortiz y Pino—
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: No, no, no. It was another—it was another group that said that they had endorsed—anyway. And so, I think that that was an error of Donald Trump. And again, I hope—I think that as he matures, that he will be much better prepared for questions that come out of that nature. And I’m sure that he probably wishes that he had just immediately answered it differently, because I do not see him as a prejudiced person or a person that doesn’t like certain groups. And I just—I just think that that was probably a low point for his answering.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me go to another state senator here in New Mexico, across the aisle and across the table from you, Jerry Ortiz y Pino. Your response to these comments of Donald Trump, from women to the hesitation to disavow the Klan?
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: I think what we’ve seen from Donald Trump throughout this campaign has been an incredible ability to say outrageous things and to get more popular support as a result of it. And unfortunately, he mines—he’s able to tap a vein within the voting public that just frightens me for the future. The kind of debates that Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton have had during this whole month-after-month lead-up to the nomination have been very interesting, very exciting. Issues have been discussed. Differences have been clarified. When the Republicans debate, because Trump is so polarizing, they talk about each other’s wives. They talk about, you know, just insults, name calling. I really fear for this country during a presidential election in which Trump is the nominee on one side, and I think our chance to explore issues will pretty much be over when the Democratic convention ends. After that, it’ll just be who can paint the other opponent as the nastiest person possible. And if that’s the deterioration of our political debate, there’s no civil discourse going on with that kind of a candidate. So, I’m really hesitant to say that, you know, maybe he’ll mature, maybe he’ll get better, maybe—I mean, I think he knows exactly why he is popular: because he isn’t mature, because he doesn’t get better. He just says outrageous things and uses it.
AMY GOODMAN: You know, it’s interesting. Donald Trump said he wasn’t familiar, for example, with David Duke, but he had spoken about him in the past. The New York Times quoted Trump in February of 2000 as saying, "So the Reform Party now includes a Klansman, Mr. Duke, a neo-Nazi, Mr. Buchanan, and a communist, Ms. Fulani. This is not company I wish to keep." He was very definite then.
GARY JOHNSON: I have to say, as a border state, I’m just incensed over the things that he says. That he’s going to deport 11 million illegal immigrants? That’s just crazy. That he’s going to build a fence across the border? That’s just crazy. That he’s going to kill the families of Islamic terrorists? Every time he says one of these things, it just gets crazier and crazier. Banning Muslims from the United States? Says he’s all for free market, but then in the next sentence he says he’s going to force Apple to make their iPads and their iPhones in the United States? And then, just a couple of weeks ago, these comments about abortion—"Well, the women should be punished"—and then a couple of hours later talking about, "Well, gee, let me clarify that: The doctors should be punished."
Amy, I’ve been in New Hampshire. I’ve been in the Midwest running for president as a Republican, before I made the switch over to Libertarian. What I’ve seen is that 30 percent of Republican voters believe the scourge of the Earth is Mexican immigration. And it was my voice out there that was saying, "Look, they’re not—first of all, they’re cream of the crop when it comes to workers. They’re not taking jobs that U.S. citizens want." It’s not an issue of lower pay, unless it’s an issue of language, and they’re the first ones that want to overcome that. And then, on top of that, I get this pitch that Trump is making to the country. So that’s 30 points of his 39 percent support. The other 9 percent is, people are picking up on the fact that, "Hey, I’ve run this successful business. I’m going to apply these business principles to government, and just watch how well it works," which, by the way, was the same pitch I made to New Mexico when I ran for governor.
AMY GOODMAN: State Senator Sue Wilson Beffort, do you think your former governor, Gary Johnson, is representing Republicans’ point of view? Your thoughts on immigrants, on the border, and setting up a wall, preventing Muslims—in another policy statement he has made, saying Muslims should be banned from entering the United States?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Well, of course, Governor Johnson was a breath of fresh air. We all—
GARY JOHNSON: Others describe that as a different scent, by the way. But anyway.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: He was a nonpolitician, as well, and did some great things as a nonpolitician. I think, as a border state, New Mexico really does present the issues that this country is facing. I would say that, first of all, most of the other candidates don’t take ad hoc interviews from the press, and so they’re better coached and don’t get these types of questions. And I think he’s learned a lesson that he probably should be a little more specific about what types of interviews that he’s going to do, just for these questions. But in terms of the border, for instance, New Mexico is extremely porous, and we have seen guns coming up through Mexico. We know that they have been landing in northern New Mexico and distributed. We’ve seen the drugs. We have one of the highest drug overdose per capita in the whole United States. And I don’t think that Trump is planning to have police go and pull people out of their houses. He will have a very sophisticated plan of encouraging people to go and come through the correct way. And I think that if you were to talk to the ranchers down in southern New Mexico, you would see why they are scared. Just last week, there was a report where ISIS said that they were going to come up through Mexico. I mean, these are things that are actually coming in the press. So—
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, Diane Denish?
DIANE DENISH: Well, I think—I think what Senator Beffort is saying is just exactly what Donald Trump—he’s dangerous, he’s divisive, and he wants people to be scared. And obviously that’s worked with Senator Beffort. We don’t have any proof that guns are coming to northern New Mexico. You know, that’s all rhetoric. New Mexico has been a multicultural state. We are what America is going to be in a few years: We are a minority-majority state. We’ve had integrated, mixed, very mixed, Hispanic leadership and Anglo leadership. And the fact that Donald Trump wants to scare people and tell them that the people that are coming are murderers and rapists, we don’t have any instances of that in New Mexico. That is just not happening. And so, it’s just not accurate. It’s not fact-based.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Well—well, I—
GARY JOHNSON: The rate of—the rate of crime among immigrants—illegal, legal—is much lower than U.S. citizens. They’re walking on eggshells. What’s not being acknowledged is that these workers, these immigrants, are cream of the crop when it comes to workers. And really what needs to be done is just make it easy as possible to get a work visa. And a work visa should entail a background check and a Social Security card, so that applicable taxes get paid. Just make the line moving. You’ve got people in Juárez—you’ve got Mexicans in Juárez that see jobs that exist in El Paso. They can’t get across the border. There’s no moving line to get across the border illegally—or legally, so they have to cross illegally to get the jobs that they see are there. And right now, by the way, there’s this reverse migration taking place, because there are more jobs right now in Mexico than there are in the United States. And how much of that border violence has to do with drug prohibition?
AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean? Well, wait, let’s talk about that in our segment, but I want to get a last word in from State Senator Jerry Pino—Jerry Ortiz y Pino.
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: Well, I think the issue really is that when you attack immigrants, you become very popular. And that’s what Donald Trump is doing. That’s what Susana Martinez has done in the state.
AMY GOODMAN: The governor right now.
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: Our current governor. And even though there’s no evidence. And Governor Johnson is absolutely right, there really is no evidence that there’s a higher crime rate among immigrants or that they pose a greater danger than the rest of us. By attacking them, you’re attacking somebody, A, who can’t vote, and, B, who’s competing for jobs at the lowest rung on the ladder. And so, you’re able to paint them as the bogeyman, you’re able to paint them as the cause of all problems, and get away with it, because you don’t have to pay the consequences.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Well—
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: They will not vote against you.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Well, let me clarify that issue.
AMY GOODMAN: Senator Sue Wilson Beffort?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: First and foremost, I don’t think that he was implying that all immigrants—we have wonderful immigrants working in New Mexico and California and the such. However, when you sit in a formal legal committee in New Mexico, a standing committee, as a legislator, it’s not hearsay when you have the reports from public safety talking about the issue of the dangerous nature of guns coming through. It is not hearsay when they tell us about the overdose problem and what has plagued our wonderful communities here in New Mexico. So, yes, the green card—the government has caused a big problem. They should have been issuing these green cards readily. They should have allowed that. But since for whatever government red tape or whatever that hasn’t occurred, it’s caused this problem. But I did want to clarify the fact that when you hear the officials when you’re in a committee hearing, that is not just scaring the public.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break and then come back to this discussion. We’re talking with two New Mexico state senators: Republican Sue Wilson Beffort and Democrat Jerry Ortiz y Pino. And we’re speaking with the former lieutenant governor of New Mexico, Diane Denish, who ran for governor. Gary Johnson is also with us. He was a Republican governor here in New Mexico, and now he is running for the Libertarian nomination to be the Libertarian candidate for president. When he ran in 2012, he got more votes—what was it? One-point-three million votes—
GARY JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. The bronze medalist.
AMY GOODMAN: —than all the other independent candidates combined. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back with you in a minute. ... Read More →
2016 Roundtable: Ahead of June 7 Primary, New Mexico Politicians on Who They're Voting for & Why
We are on the road in New Mexico, where a presidential primary is set for June. We continue our conversation on the 2016 election with four guests and discuss key positions of the five remaining Democratic and Republican candidates and the role independent voters will play during the election in November. We speak with New Mexico State Senators Jerry Ortiz y Pino (Democrat) and Sue Wilson Beffort (Republican); Diane Denish, former lieutenant governor of New Mexico; and Gary Johnson, former governor of New Mexico and 2016 Libertarian presidential candidate.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, that’s interesting you talk about independents. It’s certainly what Bernie Sanders talked about, talking about the fact that 3 million New Yorkers didn’t vote, and saying that if he were the Democratic nominee, that he had the best chance of beating, for example, Donald Trump, because of all the independents that could vote in November that haven’t been able to vote in closed primaries. I wanted to turn to Senator Jerry Ortiz y Pino. You are a Bernie Sanders supporter. Why?
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: That’s one of the reasons right there, that if you take a look at the electorate that’s going to vote in November, it’s very different from the electorate that’s been voting in these primaries. It will include those 50 percent independent. It will also give people that are part of the Green Party, the Socialist Labor Party, all the fringe parties, a place to vote, as well. And that, I believe, is one of the reasons why, in the national polling, yes, Hillary Clinton does outpoll Trump, and she does outpoll Cruz, but Bernie Sanders outpolls them by a wider margin, because you’re getting a bigger—you’re getting a bigger slice of the American pie. And when that American voice speaks, I think it speaks with a voice that sounds very much like Bernie Sanders. Its priorities are those that Bernie has made his priorities.
AMY GOODMAN: Which are what? What is it that appeals to you?
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: Well, I think that, you know, when he speaks about how our country has become very much of an oligarchy rather than a democracy, that its political processes are serving the top 5 or 1 percent, even, rather than the 95 percent, that resonates. People can look around them and see that, yes, the chief executive of their company now makes 10 times more than he did in 2007, but I’m making, you know, 14 cents an hour more. That really does resonate with people. They don’t think this is a—they think the game is rigged, and that when he speaks about trying to put the burden on those who can most bear the burden, they recognize that right now they’re the ones that are bearing the burden, and that’s not a fair system.
AMY GOODMAN: Former Lieutenant Governor Diane Denish, you were a superdelegate for Hillary Clinton in 2008?
DIANE DENISH: Yes, I was.
AMY GOODMAN: And not now, though, though you support her.
DIANE DENISH: No, I’m not a superdelegate this year.
AMY GOODMAN: Why do you support Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders?
DIANE DENISH: Well, like many women, we understand that women’s economic security is—and a family’s economic security is dependent on women being able to make their own health choices, their own—have opportunities, have equal pay for equal work over a lifetime to impact their Social Security benefits. So, as—through the years, many of us—I’m a middle-income American, and I have—we all understand unequal pay. And we agree with Bernie Sanders that the game is overbalanced in terms of the 1 percent or those people. But I think what we understand is that she is actually—much like these primaries, she has a plan to win the primaries and become the nominee. She has a plan to fight for equal pay and make it actually happen, and she’s done it in the past. She has a plan to make sure that we are creating jobs. And while she’s not attracting big crowds like—she doesn’t campaign in the same way. Yesterday, she wasn’t in a crowd of 20,000; she was at a steel plant in Indiana, talking to workers about what is really happening in this country.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think Bernie Sanders has heavily influenced her campaign and her positions, even changing them?
DIANE DENISH: I think it’s been a great debate, and I think they’ve influenced each other, and, yes, I believe that, as time goes on. And the American people have been electing nominees. Now we’re going to elect a president. And they want substance. And they want people who can say how they’re going to actually get the job done, and know that they can go into that office and be ready to face the challenges of the world.
AMY GOODMAN: And those who say that Hillary Clinton is too close to Wall Street, too cozy with Wall Street, was paid, what, more than $200,000 for a speech from Wall Street, will not release the transcripts of that speech?
DIANE DENISH: Well, you know, I think one of the most interesting things about that debate is the reason we know about Hillary’s fees from Wall Street is because she’s released 30 years of tax returns, unlike her opponent Bernie Sanders, who has failed to release his tax returns. But the fact is that Wall Street is a part of America’s economy. It needs to be reined in. She’s worked very hard on Dodd-Frank. We have the tools in place now to face executive pay in a way that never before. Stockholders are paying more attention to what’s happening. Pension funds across the country, where people have millions and billions invested, are paying attention to Wall Street. And I think that effort will continue to rein in Wall Street and that she will lead that charge.
AMY GOODMAN: Jerry Ortiz y Pino, are you satisfied with that?
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: Well, I mean, I think it’s important that this debate continue. I mean, one of the things that would bother me a great deal is if the calls for Bernie Sanders to stop running now because he doesn’t have an arithmetic chance of winning, that he would heed those. I don’t think he will. He knows that the important thing is to keep the pressure on and to keep raising these issues. He has been a voice that has consistently said, throughout his senatorial tenure and in all of his public appearances during this debate season, this election season, that this is the number one issue. And I can only, you know, recall Bill Moyers a few years ago just kind of throwing his hands up in despair over the conversion of our democracy to an oligarchy, where money controls elections, and if you don’t have the money, you can’t be a player.
AMY GOODMAN: Why do you think Bernie Sanders doesn’t resonate more in the Latino and the African-American community, but very much so with blue-collar whites, certainly with young people across the board?
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: Well, I think it’s just familiarity. It’s just he’s represented a state where there wasn’t a great Latino population, and so he hasn’t been as visible in that community as Hillary Clinton and her association with her husband, as former president, was. But I think when people do listen to him, and when they—when he’s had a chance to meet with them, there’s been a great resonance and a great consonance in their views.
AMY GOODMAN: We have to break again, but we’re going to come back to this conversation. We’re speaking with two state senators—Jerry Ortiz y Pino, Democrat, and Sue Wilson Beffort, a Republican—also the former lieutenant governor of the state of New Mexico, where we are right now, Diane Denish, and the two-time Republican governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson, who is now a Libertarian candidate for president. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the Salt Lick Foundation’s "Road to Grand Saline." This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. And we are on the road, as well, a 100-city tour. Today we’re broadcasting from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Tonight I’ll be in Flagstaff, Arizona, tomorrow in Phoenix and Tucson, then moving on to Fresno. And we’ll be in New Orleans and Houston before the weekend is out.
But here in New Mexico, where voters will head to the polls on June 7th, we’re joined by four guests: New Mexico’s former Republican Governor Gary Johnson, who’s running for president as a Libertarian; Diane Denish with us, former Democratic lieutenant governor here in New Mexico—she was Democratic lieutenant governor under Governor Richardson; and two New Mexican state senators, Jerry Ortiz y Pino, a Democrat, and Sue Wilson Beffort, a Republican.
You wanted to get a word in, Governor Gary Johnson?
GARY JOHNSON: I wanted to make a pitch for the website ISideWith.com, for everybody watching. Get online. Take this political quiz, 60 questions. At the end of the 60 questions, you get paired up with the presidential candidate most in line with your views. I tell people, "Get online, take this quiz, and then knock yourself out for the candidate that you pair up with." In 2012, I’d have been the next president of the United States based on what people thought. Now, 30 million people have got online and taken this quiz. Now, about two months ago, I take the quiz. I was having some issues with ISideWith and their answers, so I sided with myself 90 percent of the time. That’s since been resolved.
But the next person that I—the next person that I sided with, of everyone running for president, was Bernie Sanders, which, in the first few seconds, was: "What?" And then, in the next few seconds, "OK, I get it." On the social side; on the side of, yes, crony capitalism is alive and well; on the side of dropping bombs; on the side of let’s legalize marijuana; on the side of giving people choices in their lives; on, like I say, the inequity that does exist in this country—we side with, Bernie and I. Economics, I’m afraid we go two different directions. But like I say, just a surprise. I think everybody should get online and take this quiz, ISideWith.com.
AMY GOODMAN: Why is the legalization of marijuana important to you?
GARY JOHNSON: Well, first of all, I think it makes the world a better place. Legalization of marijuana from a medicinal standpoint, marijuana products directly compete with legal prescription drugs, painkillers, antidepressants, that statistically kill 100,000 people a year. Marijuana products not having been documented—haven’t been documented to kill anybody. On the recreational side, I have always maintained that legalizing marijuana will lead to less overall substance abuse, because it’s so much safer than everything else that’s out there, starting—
AMY GOODMAN: Spoken by a triathlete?
GARY JOHNSON: —starting—yes, spoken as an athlete, someone who hasn’t had a drink of alcohol in 29 years, but I do occasionally indulge in marijuana products. I want to point out to everybody watching, look, the campaign in Colorado to legalize marijuana was a campaign based on marijuana is safer than alcohol. And I think everybody recognizes that.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask something: State Senator Sue Wilson Beffort, could you see yourself—your Republican candidate, maybe you’ll be voting for Donald Trump, is that fair to say? Could you see yourself endorsing pot legalization?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Now, we’re talking about Donald Trump or pot legalization? But first of all—
AMY GOODMAN: You can answer both questions.
GARY JOHNSON: I think Sue’s going to vote for me at the end of the day, but I’ve got to work on that one.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Most probably I will vote for Donald Trump, although we have, you know, a very high-quality selection to choose. And to the marijuana issue, I can remember my father, who was a doctor, many, many years ago—he’s been gone for many years—said, "Sue"—this was after I got elected—said that marijuana was a gateway drug. And the problem with that is that it—the high is addictive and that it leads to other drugs. And I understand the governor, and he and I had all kinds of consternations when he came out, immediately, at the end of his term about that issue.
GARY JOHNSON: Middle of—middle-term. I did this when I was in office.
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Middle-term. But, you know, I want our kids to get educated. I don’t want them to be lethargic. I want them to go on for higher ed. I don’t want them moving into other types of drugs.
AMY GOODMAN: Very quickly, on this Kasich-Cruz deal, that Kasich should fight for New Mexico, Cruz would give that up, because they want to defeat Donald Trump, perhaps the man of your choosing as president, your thoughts on this?
SEN. SUE WILSON BEFFORT: Yeah, I thought it was sophomoric, or, you know, I thought it really demonstrated what people are upset about, that the people want to elect their candidate, and they don’t want deals made, they don’t want insiders choosing. Apparently it disenfranchised enough people in these five states yesterday that I think that that backfired on them. And it pointed out that the people want to get in there and vote. And the person that gets the most votes should get the nomination, and then we go into a more sophisticated process.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you want, Diane Denish, Bernie Sanders to drop out right now?
DIANE DENISH: No, I don’t. And I was a Hillary supporter in ’08, and I wanted her to stay until the last minute. I want the debate to continue. And I want Senator Sanders—should he not be the nominee, I would very much hope that he would use the money that he has been able to raise to continue to bring the issues of income inequality to the forefront and keep the—and help to elect progressive Democratic candidates who can help the president, Hillary Clinton, actually do the things that we need to do in this country.
I want to say one thing about New Mexico. We always come into play somewhere. In 2000, we won New Mexico by 368 votes. We were called at the same time Florida was in the Gore-Bush. We have this funny way of bubbling up to the surface in terms of being a very important state. So, not only do I not want Bernie Sanders to drop out, I want there to be a very vigorous June 7th primary.
AMY GOODMAN: And, I mean, New Mexico may well look like what most of the country will soon look like: the first—I mean, after Hawaii, which was always a majority-minority state, it was New Mexico that was once majority-white, but changed. Jerry Ortiz y Pino, your thought on this?
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: Oh, it very much is, you know, a state that, I think, in the future, other states will increasingly look like. We have a over 55 percent Indian and Hispanic population, a very small African-American population. But it really is the way that the America of the future will be. I think, you know, it’s really—
AMY GOODMAN: We have five seconds.
SEN. JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO: I think it’s really important that Sanders stay in there. We need a vigorous debate, and he keeps the focus on the most important issues.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all for being with us. That does it for the broadcast. The time does go quickly. To the New Mexico state senators, Jerry Ortiz y Pino and Sue Wilson Beffort, thanks so much, former New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson, now Libertarian candidate for president, and Diane Denish, former lieutenant governor.
We’re on a 100-city tour marking Democracy Now!'s 20th anniversary. I'll be in Flagstaff tonight; on Thursday, in Phoenix and Tucson; Friday, in Fresno; Saturday, in San Mateo and Grass Valley, California; then Houston and New Orleans on Sunday.
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Headlines:Trump Wins All 5 Primary States; Clinton Wins 4; Sanders Takes 1
Tuesday was another big night for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. In the Republican primary race, Trump won all five states up for grabs: Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Delaware. He won at least 54 percent in every state, capturing most of the delegates at stake. Ohio Governor John Kasich placed second in four of the contests. Ted Cruz placed second in one. Earlier this week, Kasich and Cruz announced plans to coordinate their campaigns in an effort to block Trump from reaching the 1,237 delegates needed to win the nomination and prevent a contested convention.
On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton beat Bernie Sanders in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware and Connecticut. Sanders took Rhode Island. During her victory speech, Clinton reached out to Sanders supporters.
Hillary Clinton: "Because whether you support Senator Sanders or you support me, there’s much more that unites us than divides us. We all agree that wages are too low and inequality is too high, that Wall Street can never again be allowed to threaten Main Street, and we should expand Social Security, not cut or privatize it. We Democrats agree that college should be affordable to all, and student debt shouldn’t hold anyone back."
We’ll have more on Tuesday’s results after headlines.
TOPICS:
Donald Trump
2016 Election
Hillary Clinton
Bernie Sanders
Establishment Democrats Win Senate Primaries in Maryland, Pennsylvania
In what’s been described as a dual victory for the Democratic establishment, candidates backed by party leadership won the Senate primaries in Maryland and Pennsylvania. In Pennsylvania, Katie McGinty defeated former Pennsylvania Congressmember Joe Sestak, to face Republican Senator Pat Toomey in November. Vice President Joe Biden had stumped for McGinty while the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee spent more than $2 million on TV ads to support her. In Maryland, Congressmember Chris Van Hollen defeated progressive Congressmember Donna Edwards for the Democratic Senate nomination. He’ll run to replace retiring Senator Barbara Mikulski in November. Edwards would have been Maryland’s first black senator and the second black woman ever to serve in the U.S. Senate. And Maryland State Senator Catherine Pugh won Baltimore’s Democratic mayoral primary, defeating 11 other candidates, including Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson.
TOPICS:
Democratic Party
2016 Election
Pennsylvania
Yemen: U.S. Drone Strike Kills 6, Including al-Qaeda Leader
In Yemen, a suspected U.S. drone strike killed six people identified by residents as a local al-Qaeda leader and five of his aides. The strike hit their moving car in the village of Amoudiya.
TOPICS:
Yemen
U.S. to Deploy Rocket Launcher System in Turkey Near Syria
The United States will reportedly deploy a rocket launcher system in southeastern Turkey near the Syrian border in order to target ISIS. U.S. Major General Peter Gersten said the system is the fourth of its kind in the region.
TOPICS:
Syria
Turkey
Spain Headed for New Election After Failed Bid to Form Leftist Coalition
In Spain, voters are expected to head to the polls again in June after last-ditch talks failed to form a left-wing coalition government. Spain has been in a political deadlock after December elections, which resulted in a Parliament deeply divided between the ruling People’s Party, the Socialist party and Podemos, which grew out of the indignados protest movement. Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias said the Socialists rejected a last attempt to form a coalition government.
Pablo Iglesias: "I think the deal was a good effort, an effort we would have liked to have seen as a reality, the reality of a left-wing coalition government. But unfortunately, when I finished my meeting with King Felipe, I looked at my phone and saw the 'no' from the Socialist party."
TOPICS:
Spain
Venezuela: Right-Wing Opponents Start Bid to Recall Maduro Amid Energy Crisis
In Venezuela, electoral authorities have allowed the right-wing opposition to launch an effort to recall President Nicolás Maduro. Maduro and fellow leftist President Dilma Rousseff in neighboring Brazil both face attempts by right-wing opponents to oust them from power in what both leaders have denounced as attempted coups. In Venezuela, Maduro’s opponents will seek to collect signatures from 1 percent of eligible voters to initiate a recall. This comes as Venezuela faces an energy crisis stemming from a severe drought that has crippled its main hydroelectric dam. On Tuesday, Venezuela announced a two-day work week for government workers, adding to power cuts and other measures aimed at addressing the crisis.
TOPICS:
Venezuela
Thousands Mark 19 Months Since 43 Students Disappeared; U.N. Expresses Concern
Thousands of people marched in Mexico City Tuesday to mark 19 months since the disappearance of 43 students in the southern state of Guerrero. The protest came after an international panel of experts released its final report casting doubt on the Mexican government’s account of what happened to the students, and accusing the government of stonewalling and retaliating against investigators. Speaking in Geneva Tuesday, U.N. human rights spokesperson Rupert Colville expressed concern.
Rupert Colville: "We are, however, concerned about the many challenges and obstacles reported by the experts that may have prevented certain lines of inquiries from being further explored, including regarding the roles and responsibilities of the military and other official authorities."
TOPICS:
Mexico
Mexican Journalist Shot to Death Outside Home in Guerrero State
Meanwhile, a Mexican journalist has been shot to death in front of his home in Guerrero state—the same state where the students disappeared. Francisco Pacheco Beltrán worked as a correspondent for the daily newspaper El Sol de Acapulco, edited a weekly magazine, contributed to a local radio broadcaster and ran a website with articles on crime. News reports said Pacheco’s work was critical of local authorities, including the mayor of his city, Taxco.
Whistleblowers & Journalist Go on Trial in "Luxembourg Leaks" Case
In Luxembourg, two former PricewaterhouseCoopers employees and a journalist have gone on trial over a massive leak that exposed corporate tax dodging. The so-called Luxembourg Leaks revealed how some of the world’s largest companies, including Pepsi, IKEA, AIG, Coach and Deutsche Bank, have channeled hundreds of billions of dollars through Luxembourg—a small country in Western Europe known as a "magical fairyland" for corporate tax dodgers. Some firms have secured effective tax rates of less than 1 percent. The documents were published by news organizations around the world. But now the whistleblowers and journalist Edouard Perrin are on trial and could reportedly face up to 10 years in prison.
TOPICS:
Whistleblowers
Tax Havens
Protesters on Hunger Strike over San Francisco Police Killings
In San Francisco, a group of protesters has been on hunger strike for nearly a week to protest police killings of unarmed African-American and Latino men. The activists have been occupying the sidewalk in front of the Mission police station, responsible for a number of the recent killings. They want San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee to fire San Francisco Police Chief Greg Suhr or to resign himself. To see our coverage of the San Francisco police killings of Alex Nieto and Luis Gongora, go to democracynow.org.
TOPICS:
California
Police Brutality
Las Vegas Review-Journal Columnist Quits After Being Banned from Writing on Sheldon Adelson
A columnist for the Las Vegas Review-Journal has resigned after being told he couldn’t write about the newspaper’s new owner, billionaire casino magnate and Republican megadonor Sheldon Adelson. John Smith had been barred from writing about Adelson and another casino magnate, Steve Wynn. Both Adelson and Wynn had sued Smith over books he wrote, although neither lawsuit succeeded. Las Vegas Review-Journal editor J. Keith Moyer said publicly at a journalism conference over the weekend he believed it was a "conflict" for Smith to write about Adelson. Smith announced his resignation Tuesday after three decades, writing, "If a Las Vegas columnist is considered 'conflicted' because he’s been unsuccessfully sued by two of the most powerful and outspoken players in the gaming industry, then it’s time to move on. If the Strip’s thin-skinned casino bosses aren’t grist for commentary, who is?"
TOPICS:
Journalism
Florida GOP Senate Candidate Wants to Ban Anyone from Middle East – Except Israel
And a Florida Republican Senate candidate has suggested anyone from the Middle East should be banned from entering the United States. Questioned by a reporter about the comments, Carlos Beruff said he would allow in people from Israel. This is audio from the Sun Sentinel.
Reporter: "What countries would you apply that to?"
Carlos Beruff: "Pretty much anybody that’s got a terrorist organization in it, which is pretty much all the Middle East."
Reporter: "Would you include Israel in that?"
Carlos Beruff: "I think Israel’s security measures are pretty strong. Anybody coming out of Israel—well, OK, but, you know, Israel is an exception. Their sophisticated security system allows people to be safe when they leave Israel. We don’t have to worry about it."
TOPICS:
Republican Party
Florida
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