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U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation
In the second part of our interview, Henry Siegman, the former head of the American Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America, discusses the assault on Gaza, Hamas’ rocket attacks on Israel, and how peace could be attainable if the Obama administration reverse decades-long support for the Israeli occupation. Born in 1930 in Germany, Siegman fled as the Nazis came to power, eventually arriving in the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement pushing for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. Commenting on the Hamas charter that calls for Israel’s destruction, Siegman says: "The difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel is actually implementing [a destruction policy] — actually preventing a Palestinian state which doesn’t exist. Millions of Palestinians live in this subservient position without rights, without security, without hope, and without a future." Commenting on Israeli justifications for killing Palestinians in the name of self-defense from 1948 through today, Siegman responds: "If you don’t want to kill Palestinians, if that’s what pains you so much, you don’t have to kill them. You can give them their rights, and you can end the occupation. And to put the blame for the occupation and for the killing of innocents that we are seeing in Gaza now on the Palestinians — why? Because they want a state of their own? They want what Jews wanted and achieved? This is a great moral insult."
Click here to watch part 1 of this interview.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. As we continue our coverage of the Israeli offensive on Gaza, we turn to part two of our conversation with Henry Siegman, the former head of the American Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America. What he says about the future of Israel and the ongoing assault on Gaza may surprise you. Siegman was born in 1930 in Frankfurt, Germany. His family fled Germany as the Nazis came to power. He eventually arrived in the United States in 1942. His father was a leader of European Zionism, pushing for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Henry Siegman studied and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. He recently wrote a piece for Politico headlined "Israel Provoked This War: It’s Up to President Obama to Stop It."
Democracy Now!'s Nermeen Shaikh and I sat down with Henry Siegman on Tuesday. I asked him about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's claim that Israel is just responding to the thousands of rockets that Hamas and other groups are firing from Gaza.
HENRY SIEGMAN: My response is that they wouldn’t be firing those rockets if you weren’t out—if you didn’t have an occupation in place. And one of the reasons you say you do not have an occupation in place is because you really don’t have a united partner, Palestinian partner, to make peace with, and when Palestinians seek to establish that kind of a government, which they just recently did, bringing Hamas into the governmental structure, Palestinian governmental structure, that is headed by Abbas, you seek to destroy that. You won’t recognize it. And this is why I say there are several reasons for the Israeli action. A primary one is to prevent this new government from actually succeeding. It’s an attempt to break up the new unity government set up by the Palestinians.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Why would they do that? Why would they want to do that?
HENRY SIEGMAN: They want to do that, for the first time—for years, I have been suggesting and arguing that they want to do that because they are intent on preventing the development of a Palestinian state. To put it bluntly, they want all of it. They want all of Palestine.
Now, this is something that Netanyahu said openly and without any reservations when he was not in government. He wrote about it, published a book about it, his opposition to a Palestinian state, that Israel couldn’t allow that. The difference between the time that he—and he, incidentally, opposed not just Palestinian statehood. He opposed peace agreements with Egypt. He opposed peace agreements with Jordan. Any positive step towards a stabilization and a more peaceful region, Netanyahu has been on record as opposing.
And when he came into office as prime minister, he understood that it is not a smart thing to say that Israel’s policy is to maintain the occupation permanently. So, the only difference between his positions in the past and the position now is that he pretends that he really would like to see a two-state solution, which, as you know, is the affirmation he made in his so-called Bar-Ilan speech several years ago. And some naive people said, "Ah, you know, redemption is at hand," when, to his own people, he winked and made clear, and as I just read recently—I didn’t know that—that it’s on record that his father said, "Of course he didn’t mean it. He will attach conditions that will make it impossible." But that was his tactic. His tactic was to say, "We are all in favor of it, but if only we had a Palestinian partner."
Now, in fact, they’ve had a Palestinian partner that’s been willing and able—they set up institutions that the World Bank has said are more effective than most states that are members of the U.N. today. And that, of course, made no difference, and continued to say we do not have a partner, because you have nearly two million Palestinians in Gaza who are not represented. So the unity government became a threat to that tactic of pretending to be in support of a Palestinian state.
AMY GOODMAN: In a response to the piece that you wrote for Politico that was headlined "Israel Provoked This War," the Anti-Defamation League writes, quote, "Hamas has a charter which they live up to every day calling for Israel’s destruction. Hamas has used the last two years of relative quiet to build up an arsenal of rockets whose sole purpose is to attack Israel. Hamas has built a huge network of tunnels leading into Israel with the purpose of murdering large numbers of Israelis and seizing hostages." Henry Siegman, can you respond?
HENRY SIEGMAN: What I would point out to my former friend Abe Foxman of the ADL is that, too, is Israel’s charter, or at least the policy of this government and of many previous governments, which is to prevent the emergence of a Palestinian state. And they have built up their army and their armaments to implement that policy. And the difference between Hamas and the state of Israel is that the state of Israel is actually doing it. They’re actually implementing it, and they’re actually preventing a Palestinian state, which doesn’t exist. And millions of Palestinians live in this subservient position without rights and without security, without hope and without a future. That’s not the state of—the state of Israel is a very successful state, and happily Jews live there with a thriving economy and with an army whose main purpose is preventing that Palestinian state from coming into being. That’s their mandate.
But sadly and shockingly, they can stand by, even though international law says if you’re occupying people from outside of your country, you have a responsibility to protect them. I mean, the responsibility to protect is the people you are occupying. The soldiers who are there, ostensibly to implement that mandate, will watch settler violence when it occurs when they attack Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, and they won’t do a thing to prevent it. They won’t intervene to protect the people they are supposed to protect, and they will tell you, "That’s not our job. Our job is to protect the Jews."
NERMEEN SHAIKH: On the question of the support, the successive U.S. administrations supporting Israel, I’d like to again quote from something you said in a 2002 New York Times interview with Chris Hedges. You said, "The support for Israel," in the United States, "fills a spiritual vacuum. If you do not support the government of Israel then your Jewishness, not your political judgment, is in question." So could you explain what you mean by that and what the implications of that have been, in terms of U.S. governments supporting Israeli government policy?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, what I meant by that, and that was an interview quite a while ago—
NERMEEN SHAIKH: 2002, yes.
HENRY SIEGMAN: I see, OK, which is not all that long ago, for me anyway. I meant by that something quite simple, that for many American Jews—and, I suspect, for most American Jews—Israel has become the content of their Jewish religious identification. It has very little other content. I rarely have been at a Shabbat service where a rabbi gives a sermon where Israel isn’t a subject of the sermon. And typically, they are—the sermons are not in the spirit of an Isaiah, you know, who says, "My god, is this what God wants from you? Your hands are bloody; they’re filled with blood. But he doesn’t want your fast. He doesn’t want—he despises the sacrifices and your prayers. What he wants is to feed, to feed the hungry, to pursue justice and so on." But that’s not what you hear from rabbis in the synagogues in this country. So, what I meant by that is that there’s much more to Judaism and to the meaning that you give to your Jewish identity than support for the likes of Netanyahu.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And Henry Siegman, what do you think the Obama administration has done since his first administration? And what do you think he ought to be doing differently, on the question of Israel-Palestine and, in particular, his response to this most recent military assault on Gaza?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Look, I have written about this for years now. It’s not all that complicated. It is quite clear that, left to its own devices, if Israel—if the United States says to the Palestinians, "Hey, you guys have got to talk not to us; you’ve got to talk to the Palestinians—to the Israelis, and you have to come to an understanding that’s how peace is made, but we can’t interfere. You know, we cannot tell Israel what to do"—left to their own devices, there will never be a Palestinian state. And the question is—I have very serious doubts that we have not gone beyond the point where a Palestinian state is possible. The purpose of the settlement movement was to make it impossible. And I believe they have succeeded: That project has achieved its goal.
AMY GOODMAN: The Jewish settlements.
HENRY SIEGMAN: The Jewish settlers have achieved the irreversibility of the settlement movement, in terms of the vast infrastructure that has been put in place. So, even if there were a leftist government, so-called leftist government, that came to power, it would not be able to do it, because of the upheaval that would be necessary to create such a state.
There is only one thing—as far as I’m concerned, there are only two things that could happen that could still, perhaps, produce a Palestinian state. The first one is for the—because the United States remains absolutely essential in terms of Israel’s security, to its continued success and survival. If at some point the United States were to say, "You have now reached a point—we have been your biggest supporters. We have been with you through thick and thin. And we have based—we have treated you"—you know, a lot of people say, criticizing the U.S. and the international community, that we have double standards, that we expect things of Israel that we don’t expect of the rest of the world. We do have double standards, but it works the other way around: We grant Israel privileges and tolerate behavior that we would not in other allies. We may say there’s nothing we can do to change that, but we don’t give them billions of dollars. And we don’t go to the U.N., at the Security Council, to veto when the international—efforts by the United Nations to prevent that bad behavior. So we have double standards, but it works the other way. But if the United States were to say to Israel, "It’s our common values that underlie this very special relationship we have with you and these privileges that we have extended to you, but this can’t go on. We can’t do that when those values are being undermined. The values—what you are doing today contradicts American values. We are a democratic country, and we cannot be seen as aiding and abetting this oppression and permanent disenfranchisement of an entire people. So, you’re on your own." The issue is not America sending planes and missiles to bomb Tel Aviv as punishment; the issue is America removing itself from being a collaborator in the policies and a facilitator, making it easy and providing the tools for Israel to do that. So, if at some point the United States were to say what is said in Hebrew, ad kan, you know, "So far, but no further. We can’t—this is not what we can do. You want to do it? You’re on your own," that would change—that could still change the situation, because the one thing Israelis do not want to do is have the country live in a world where America is not there to have their back.
And the other possibility, which I have also written about, is for Palestinians to say, "OK, you won. You didn’t want us to have a state. We see that you’ve won. You have all of it." So our struggle is no longer to push the border to—to maintain a '67 border, where nobody is going to come to their help, because borderlines—international opinion doesn't mobilize around those issues. But this is a struggle against what looks and smells like apartheid—we want citizenship, we want full rights in all of Palestine—and make that the struggle. If Palestinians were to undertake that kind of a struggle in a credible way, where the Israeli public would see that they really mean it and they are going to fight for that in a nonviolent way, not by sending rockets, for citizenship, I am convinced—and I’ve seen no polls that contradict that belief—that they would say to their government, "Wait a minute, that is unacceptable, in fact, for us, and we cannot allow that. We don’t want a majority Arab population here." I’ve talked to Palestinian leadership and urged them to move in that direction. There is now a growing movement among younger Palestinians in that direction. And that, I hope, may yet happen. Now, it has to be a serious movement. It can’t just be a trick to get another state, but only if it is serious, where they are ready to accept citizenship and fight for it in a single state of all of Palestine, is it possible for the Israeli public to say, "This we cannot want, too, and we have to have a government that will accept the two states."
AMY GOODMAN: Why would Prime Minister Netanyahu, who has said he supports a two-state solution, create a situation that makes it virtually impossible, since it leads to this second possibility, which is a one-state solution, to the possibility that he does not want, which would be a majority Arab country?
HENRY SIEGMAN: He obviously believes that a one-state—well, I said earlier in our conversation that he never meant—when he said in his Bar-Ilan speech that he embraces a two-state, that was totally contrived. It was dishonest. Or, in simple English, he lied. And I appreciated the fact that several weeks ago, two weeks ago, he had a press conference in which he said—he didn’t say, "I lied," but he said, "There will never be a truly sovereign Palestinian state anywhere in Palestine." So, it’s quite clear now, and one of his friends, the former editor of The Jerusalem Post, who now edits The Times of Israel, had this big headline: "Finally, Now We Know It." We know he never meant it. He didn’t say this critically; he said this positively. "Finally, he’s back in the fold, and we know he will never allow a sovereign Palestinian state." Now, what will he do with a majority Arab population? He will do what the head of HaBayit HaYehudi, Bennett, has been advocating and proposed.
AMY GOODMAN: That means Jewish Home party in Israel.
HENRY SIEGMAN: That means the Jewish Home, and the Jewish Home meaning everywhere. And what he has said is that we’ll solve this problem of a potential apartheid in Israel in the following way: We will allow certain enclaves where there are heavy population—heavily populated by Palestinians, in certain parts of the West Bank, and those enclaves will be surrounded by our military. In other words, a bunch of Gazas; there will be several Gazas. Gaza, of course, will be shed or will become one of those enclaves, so they’re not part of the population of Israel. All the rest of Israel—the Jordan Valley, Area C, all of Area C, which is over 60 percent of the West Bank—will be annexed unilaterally by Israel. So, we will have shed two million Palestinians from Gaza. We will have shed another million and a half that live in the cities and in the more populated urban areas, in those enclaves—in those, essentially, bantustans. And the rest, that there are—what did he say? There are 50,000 Palestinians who live in Area C. We will make them citizens, and voila, apartheid is solved. That is—I believed that for the longest time, but that is the plan of Bibi Netanyahu. He may have to settle for less than 60 percent of the West Bank, but essentially he thinks he can solve this problem, this demographic bomb, as it’s been described, in this manner.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: You’ve also expressed in an interview in 2012 with The Jewish Daily Forward a concern that if Israel continues on its present path, its path in 2012, which I think it’s safe to say it continues today, that Israel will not be able to exist even for another 50 years. Could you explain what you mean by that? Why couldn’t it exist in the form that you’ve just described, for instance?
HENRY SIEGMAN: In which form?
NERMEEN SHAIKH: What you were saying earlier about the way in which the—
HENRY SIEGMAN: You mean in Bennett’s form?
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well—
HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, it certainly would not be existing as a Jewish state, and neither as a democratic state or a Jewish state.
AMY GOODMAN: Because?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Because a country that creates—for the same reason that South Africa could not claim it is a democratic state, because it has a bunch of bantustans.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you see Israel as an apartheid state?
HENRY SIEGMAN: If they were to implement Bennett’s plan, absolutely. I don’t know if technically this is apartheid, but it certainly would not be a democratic state. It would lose its right to call itself a democracy.
AMY GOODMAN: Henry Siegman, I wanted to ask you about media coverage of the conflict right now in Gaza. In a comment to close the CBS show Face the Nation on Sunday, the host, Bob Schieffer, suggested Hamas forces Israel to kill Palestinian children.
BOB SCHIEFFER: In the Middle East, the Palestinian people find themselves in the grip of a terrorist group that is embarked on a strategy to get its own children killed in order to build sympathy for its cause—a strategy that might actually be working, at least in some quarters. Last week I found a quote of many years ago by Golda Meir, one of Israel’s early leaders, which might have been said yesterday: "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children," she said, "but we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."
AMY GOODMAN: That was the host, the journalist Bob Schieffer, on Face the Nation. You knew Prime Minister Golda Meir.
HENRY SIEGMAN: Yes, I did. I wasn’t a friend of hers, but I knew her, and I heard her when she made that statement. And I thought then, and think now, that it is an embarrassingly hypocritical statement. This statement was made by a woman who also said "Palestinians? There are no Palestinians! I am a Palestinian." If you don’t want to kill Palestinians, if that’s what pains you so much, you don’t have to kill them. You can give them their rights, and you can end the occupation. And to put the blame for the occupation and for the killing of innocents that we are seeing in Gaza now on the Palestinians—why? Because they want a state of their own? They want what Jews wanted and achieved? I find that, to put it mildly, less than admirable. There is something deeply hypocritical about that original statement and about repeating it on the air over here as a great moral insight.
AMY GOODMAN: Henry Siegman, president of the U.S./Middle East Project, former head of the American Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America, recently wrote a piece for Politico headlined "Israel Provoked This War." Visit democracynow.org for part one of our conversation with Henry Siegman.
This is Democracy Now! When we come back, Iron Dome or Iron Sieve? How effective is the Iron Dome that Israel has touted? Stay with us.
"Enough Blood Has Been Spilled": Israel Condemned for Striking U.N. Shelter as Death Toll Tops 1,300
United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has condemned what he called the "outrageous" and "unjustifiable" Israeli shelling of a U.N. shelter in Gaza that killed 20 Palestinian civilians on Wednesday. Many of the dead were children who were sleeping. The United Nations has not directly condemned Israel, but says all available evidence points to its responsibility for the bombing. It was the sixth time a U.N. shelter had been bombed since the Israeli offensive in Gaza began 24 days ago. The United Nations said it had given the coordinates of the shelter to the Israeli military 17 times prior to the attack. According to the United Nations, more than 240,000 Palestinians are now staying in U.N. shelters in Gaza. Another 200,000 Palestinians have been displaced and are staying with other families. We are joined by Christopher Gunness, spokesperson for the the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. "UNRWA has reached a breaking point," Gunness says. "Eight of our staff have been killed. Our facilities are overwhelmed. Because of the continued displacement ... we may soon find ourselves where there are tens of thousands of people in the streets of Gaza — no food, no water, no shelter, no safety, frankly, after we’ve found that Israeli artillery is capable of hitting our shelters. And we’re saying: enough is enough."
Image Credit: twitter.com/ChrisGunness
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: "Outrageous" and "unjustifiable." Those were the words used by the United Nations to condemn Israel after at least 20 Palestinian civilians died when a U.N. shelter was bombed in Gaza Wednesday. Many of the dead were children who were sleeping. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said all available evidence points to Israel being behind the attack. It was the sixth time a U.N. shelter had been bombed since the Israeli offensive in Gaza began 24 days ago. The U.N. said it had given the coordinates of the shelter to the Israeli military 17 times prior to the attack.
According to the United Nations, more than 240,000 Palestinians are now staying in U.N. shelters in Gaza. Another 200,000 Palestinians have been displaced and are staying with other families. Hours after the attack, Christopher Gunness, the spokesperson for the the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, broke down during an interview with Al Jazeera.
CHRISTOPHER GUNNESS: The rights of Palestinians, even their children, are wholesale denied, and it’s appalling.
AMY GOODMAN: Joining us now is Christopher Gunness, the spokesperson for the the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, known as UNRWA. He’s joining us via Democracy Now! video stream from Jerusalem.
Chris, welcome back to Democracy Now!
CHRISTOPHER GUNNESS: Thank you. Thank you very much.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what took place yesterday?
CHRISTOPHER GUNNESS: Well, we saw huge displacement in Gaza. There are now, in UNRWA facilities, 86 of them, nearly a quarter of a million people. And don’t forget, these are people displaced because of the Israeli ground offensive, and according to international law, it’s the belligerent parties in a conflict which are responsible for the humanitarian consequences, particularly towards civilians. So, UNRWA has reached great breaking point. And we are at the point where eight of our staff have been killed. Our facilities are overwhelmed. Because of the continued displacement and the fact that Israel has dropped leaflets, etc., from the sky and sent text messages, possibly thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands more are going to be displaced. We may soon find ourselves where there are tens of thousands of people in the streets of Gaza—no food, no water, no shelter, no safety, frankly, after we’ve found that Israeli artillery is capable of hitting our safe shelters.
And we’re saying enough is enough. We cannot be expected to have an endless capacity to absorb the consequences of Israeli military decisions, and it is time that we acknowledge that we’ve moved beyond the realm of humanitarian action alone, and we have moved into the realm of political accountability and political action. Pierre Krahenbuhl, the Swiss national who is going to be briefing the Security Council from Gaza today—it promises to be a truly historic moment; it’s at 5:00 Gaza time and is available live-streaming through the U.N. website—is going to tell the Security Council that we have reached breaking point, and it’s up to others, with the political weight, to bring correct influence to bear on the parties. And we all know exactly which parties and which influences have to be brought to bear. It’s time for them to do so, to end this conflict, because the guns need to fall silent. Enough blood has been spilled. And that moment of ceasefire, of permanent ceasefire, will not come soon enough for the embattled people of Gaza—and, by the way, for the six million civilians in Israel who have been terrorized by these appalling barrages of rockets that have been flying out.
AMY GOODMAN: Chris Gunness, how does the U.N. know that it was Israel that attacked the U.N. shelter, the school that the U.N. is using to house thousands of refugees?
CHRISTOPHER GUNNESS: Well, Amy, first of all, the word "attack" is not a word that we’ve used, because that implies deliberate intentionality, and that’s not something we’re saying. We’re saying that an Israeli artillery shell struck the school, and there’s a big difference there. Intentionality is the difference. We know that because we did crater analysis, we did trajectory analysis, we analyzed the debris, including fragments that were found at the scene. And we are confident enough in our initial findings to have gone public and to have made a very strong condemnation of the serious violation of international law by Israeli forces. I think the very fact that a humanitarian organization is making such an accusation against one of the most powerful armies in the world, and certainly in the Middle East, I think says something about how certain of our facts we are. But, you know, let’s have a proper investigation. There must be accountability. There must be transparency and proper reporting. The truth will come out. And, you know, we hope that with truth, as is often the case, will come justice.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to Mark Regev, the spokesperson for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who was responding to the bombing of the U.N. school in an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer.
MARK REGEV: First of all, it’s not clear to us that it was Israeli fire, even Israeli errant fire, that hit that U.N. facility. What we do know is that terrorists, Hamas terrorists, were shooting at our forces, and there was a firefight, and they were shooting at us from the immediate vicinity of that U.N. school. Now, if our forces are in the field and being shot at, right, it’s only natural that they would return fire to save their own lives.
AMY GOODMAN: Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev also responded to the U.N.’s finding that it was in fact Israeli shells which hit the school.
MARK REGEV: First of all, we’ll be interested to hear what they’ll say, and we’ll cooperate in investigations, if need be, because we’ll be totally transparent. If it was our fault, if it was errant Israeli fire, then we will of course come clean. In the past, we have admitted when we’ve made mistakes. But let’s be clear. Here, the secretary-general of the United Nations has been very clear. He said when terrorists put weapons or use a U.N. facility for their military purposes, they are responsible, because they are endangering the lives of everyone who uses that facility. And that was clear today, that our forces were taking fire from terrorists in the immediate vicinity of that school, therefore it’s Hamas who has turned this area into a war zone, and they bear responsibility.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s the Israeli spokesperson, Mark Regev. Christopher Gunness of the United Nations, can you respond?
CHRISTOPHER GUNNESS: Well, here are some questions for Mr. Regev. Do you not think that the self-described most moral army in the world, if it was going to attack—I mean, he seems to be saying that there were terrorists there, so Israel deliberately attacked. I think that’s what I heard him say; I may be wrong. But if the most moral army in the world, as the Israeli army has called itself, feels that there’s going to be an attack in which people are going to be killed, women and children, children who slept at their parents’ side on the floor of a classroom in a U.N.-designated safe area, wouldn’t it be sensible to allow the principle of distinction to take hold and for combatants and noncombatants to be distinguished and for women and children civilians to be allowed to leave the combat zone? And what about the notion of proportionality, the fact that you’re attacking militants near an UNRWA compound, and the risk is that you kill women and children in large numbers? Isn’t that something which the rules of war dictate that the Israeli army should be cognizant of?
The idea that because a few militants were near an UNRWA school somehow justifies an artillery shell hitting that school and killing children sleeping by the sides of their parents seems to me, at any rate, as a citizen of the world, not necessarily an expert in international law, completely unconscionable. And I think the very fact that we have seen the quite proper revulsion of the world, given the carnage that we saw, not just in Jabaliya, but last Thursday in Beit Hanoun, I think says something about the way that these arguments are stacking up. It’s fine for Israeli spokespeople to say these things, but let us not forget, Amy, that our compound in January 2009 was struck by white phosphorus with a direct hit, where hundreds of people had taken refuge. And we heard similar apologies, protestations, you know, all sorts of fine words from Israeli spokespeople, including Mr. Regev, about how heartbroken they were and how terrible this all was. And here we are five years later with exactly the same parties hitting directly U.N. safe areas which are full of civilians. And, you know, one might also ask Mr. Regev about the pinpoint nature of these strikes, because if it is that nearly two-thirds of these civilians are being struck in pinpoint strikes, one seriously has to wonder about the high technology of the Israeli army and indeed the methodology behind their targeting techniques.
AMY GOODMAN: Christopher Gunness, I want to thank you for being with us, spokesperson for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, known as UNRWA, speaking to us from Jerusalem
This is
Democracy Now!
When we come back, a leading voice of U.S. Jewry, Henry Siegman, part two of our conversation with the former head of the American Jewish Congress. Stay with us.
Iron Dome or Iron Sieve? Evidence Questions Effectiveness of U.S.-Funded Israeli Missile Shield
Just hours after the White House condemned the shelling of a U.N. school in Gaza, the Pentagon confirmed it was providing Israel with fresh supplies of ammunition, including mortar rounds for tanks and ammunition for grenade launchers. Meanwhile, members of Congress are working to supply hundreds of millions of dollars in additional funding for Israel’s "Iron Dome" missile shield. While U.S. news anchors, pundits and politicians have repeatedly extolled the efficacy of the Iron Dome in deflecting rocket attacks, the acclaimed physicist Theodore Postol says there is no evidence Iron Dome is actually working. He estimates the Iron Dome, which is partially built by Raytheon, intercepts just 5 percent of rockets fired at Israel. A professor of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Postol is an expert in missiles, missile defenses and other aspects of modern warfare.
Click here to watch part 2 of this interview.
Image Credit: NatanFlayer
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. Just hours after it condemned the shelling of a U.N. school in Gaza, the United States confirmed it was providing Israel with fresh supplies of ammunition, including mortar rounds for tanks and ammunition for grenade launchers. Meanwhile, U.S. Congress is working to supply hundreds of millions of dollars in additional funding for Israel’s Iron Dome missile shield. On Monday, U.S. National Security Adviser Susan Rice reaffirmed the Obama administration’s support of Iron Dome at an event organized by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.
SUSAN RICE: In recent weeks, on average, over 100 rockets a day have been fired at Israel. Iron Dome has literally meant the difference between life and death, and I’m deeply proud that President Obama helped make it possible. And I’m proud that with his enthusiastic support, the United States will more than double our investment in Iron Dome in 2015.
AMY GOODMAN: In the U.S. media, news anchors, pundits, politicians have extolled the efficacy of the Iron Dome in deflecting the barrage of Hamas rockets that put Israeli lives at risk.
UNIDENTIFIED: Iron Dome is working. It’s minimized casualties and fatalities.
REPORTER: Red flash as it intercepts the rocket. Now this defense system is proving hugely successful.
SEN. TED CRUZ: Rockets begin coming through the sky, the night sky. And you see rockets come across the sky, and then you see Iron Dome interceptors come up and explode the rockets.
MARTIN FLETCHER: The Iron Dome anti-missile system did its job tracking the missiles, hitting them head-on, destroying them.
DAVID LEE MILLER: As we gazed overhead, we saw the interceptor missiles, the Iron Dome system, doing its job, at least three of those rockets shot down just a few moments ago.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, our next guest says exactly the opposite, suggesting the Iron Dome is more of, quote, an "Iron Sieve." He has just written an article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists called "The Evidence That Shows Iron Dome Is Not Working." Physicist Theodore Postol joins us now from Boston, Massachusetts. He’s professor of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, an expert in missiles, missile defenses and other aspects of modern warfare.
Professor Postol, welcome to Democracy Now! I mean, over 1,300 Palestinians have been killed. Three Israeli civilians have died, it’s believed two of them as a result of rocket or mortar. Yet you’re saying Iron Dome is not responsible for the low casualty rate for Israelis. Why?
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, the low casualty rates are due to an extremely effective system of early warning and sheltering. There are shelters all over Israel that have been built by the government. People have shelters in their homes, by law. And there is a warning system that tells you that a rocket might be traveling in your direction. So, all you need to do is get into the shelter, or into a shelter, and even if the rocket hits your house, you will not be killed. Now, if you don’t get into a shelter and a rocket hits your house and, for example, enters the room where you were sitting, you will be killed. So, the sheltering and warning is very critical to saving lives.
Now, even the Israeli government has made this point, because there are Bedouins who the Israeli government does not recognize as deserving or does not protect them. These are nomadic Arab peoples. And the Israeli government argued against providing the Bedouins with shelter, simply because all the people have to do, according to the Israeli government, is lie down on the ground if they know that an artillery rocket might be coming in, and if they do that, their chances of being a casualty will be reduced by 80 percent. That’s the Israeli government itself saying that.
So, the reasons that this civil defense is so effective is because, first, the artillery rocket warheads are not very large, 10 to 20 pounds, and the second thing is that people have adequate warning to take shelter. That is extremely effective. Let me just give you an example of how dramatically effective early warning can be. In World War II, during the bombing of London, there were V-1 and V-2 rockets being used. The V-2 was a ballistic missile that hit without warning, because people had no radars at that time to know it was coming. The V-1 was kind of like a cruise missile. It was called a buzz bomb, because it had a particular kind of a what’s called pulse jet motor that made a buzzing sound. Now, the V-1s did the same amount of damage as the V-2s, but the chances of being killed by a V-1 when it hit the ground, relative to a V-2, were 60 percent lower, 60 percent lower. And this great reduction in casualties is ascribable to the fact that if you’re walking in the street during World War II in London and you hear the buzz bomb overhead, its motor will turn off and it will dive to the ground, but you have seven seconds between the motor turning off and the warhead hitting. And just getting to the ground increases your chances of survival by a factor of 60 percent. So—
AMY GOODMAN: So what is the so-called—this dome, the Iron Dome, doing?
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, we know—we have videos of the contrails—by contrails, I mean the smoke trails left by the Iron Dome rocket motor—that indicate the geometry of the engagement between the Iron Dome interceptors and the incoming artillery rockets. So, for example, if you see a contrail that ends with an explosion of an Iron Dome, and the contrail is traveling parallel to the earth, this means that the Iron Dome attempted to engage an artillery rocket from what you call a side-on geometry, because the artillery rocket is falling in a highly vertical trajectory. In a side-on geometry, the probability of destroying the artillery rocket warhead is essentially zero, for all practical purposes. We also see Iron Domes chasing artillery rockets from behind. The probability of destroying an artillery rocket warhead in that geometry is also zero. We occasionally, very occasionally, see an Iron Dome intercept arising in a near-vertical trajectory. That is the only engagement geometry where the Iron Dome has a non-zero chance of destroying the rocket—the artillery rocket warhead.
AMY GOODMAN: So how often have these rockets been intercepted?
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, we don’t know exactly, but my guess is maybe 5 percent of the time. It may not even be that good.
AMY GOODMAN: Ninety-five percent of the time, they miss?
THEODORE POSTOL: It looks that way, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, if you’re watching television in the United States, as we just played those clips, it’s universally accepted that it is the reason for the low casualty rate for Israelis.
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, let me remind you that in the Gulf War of 1991, the interceptor rate of the Patriot missile defense over Israel and Saudi Arabia was reported as 96 percent, even higher. And we analyzed the information we obtained from television videos, and when we were finished, the general view among all—all—informed technical people was that the intercept rate of Patriot was probably zero. So, people look at these explosions in the sky, they associate this light show with successful intercepts, and what they are seeing are the explosion of the Iron Dome warheads.
AMY GOODMAN: U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel sent a letter to Congress requesting $225 million more in U.S. funding—
THEODORE POSTOL: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: —to accelerate production of the Dome missile defense components. What is the company that benefits from this, or the military contractors that are getting this money?
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, the company that will benefit—the American company that will benefit most—there will be companies in Israel that also benefit—is the Raytheon Corporation, which is out here in Massachusetts.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s where the money goes.
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, a large part of it will go. I haven’t been able to find any information on how much will be paid to Raytheon for each interceptor that’s built.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think the money is well spent, Professor Postol?
THEODORE POSTOL: I would not spend money on an interceptor that has a near-zero chance of intercepting an artillery rocket. The interceptor probably costs well in excess of $100,000 per interceptor, and it’s maybe achieving a 5 percent rate—maybe, could be lower—against rockets that maybe cost $1,000 each or $500 each. So the cost-exchange ratio is fine, if you’re Israeli and the dollars on not coming out of your pocket. But in the case of an American system, I would certainly not support such a system.
AMY GOODMAN: How can there be such a disparity between what you claim and everyone else? I mean, the Israeli government says 85 to 90 percent success rate. Is it lying?
THEODORE POSTOL: Well, I think there’s been quite a lot of sleight of hand on the part of the Israeli government. Now, in all fairness, there are reasons—I mean, that could be justified in warfare—for lying. First of all, you could lie because it calms your population to think that they’re being defended. Now, there is a double-edged sword here, though, because if people think they are being defended, they may not take shelter. And in November of 2012, three people were killed—
AMY GOODMAN: We have 10 seconds.
THEODORE POSTOL: Oh, three people were killed on a porch because they were out looking at Iron Dome supposedly successfully intercepting.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to continue this conversation after the show, and then we’ll post it at democracynow.org. Professor Theodore Postol of Massachusetts Institute of Technology, thanks so much for joining us.
Headlines:
•Palestinian Toll Tops 1,370, Including 315 Children
The Palestinian death toll has passed 1,370 on the 25th day of Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip. The Health Ministry in Gaza says the dead include 315 children. More than 7,700 people have been wounded. At least 13 people were killed in bombings earlier today.
•Israel: No Ceasefire Without Tunnels’ Destruction
At a news conference, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to continue the assault until the tunnels used by Palestinian fighters are destroyed. Netanyahu says Israel will also reject any ceasefire that prevents it from wiping out the tunnels. The tunnels have been used to move weapons and carry out attacks on soldiers, as well as to smuggle goods and Gaza residents cut off by the seven-year blockade. Rockets fired from Gaza have killed three civilians inside Israel. Israel’s military death toll during the assault is at 58.
•Secretary-General Condemns Israeli Shelling of U.N. School
Israel drew condemnation from the United Nations on Wednesday for the bombing of a U.N. school housing displaced Gaza residents. At least 16 people were killed, all civilians. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the attack "shameful."
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon: "This morning, yet another United Nations school sheltering thousands of Palestinian families suffered a reprehensible attack. All available evidence points to Israeli artillery as the cause. Nothing is more shameful than attacking sleeping children. At least 16 civilians are dead, and many more are injured."
•U.S. Approves New Weapons Transfer to Israeli Military
The Israeli attack in Jabaliya marked the sixth time a U.N. school had been struck during Israel’s more than three-week offensive. The Obama administration has condemned the attack on the U.N. school, but has refused to blame or condemn Israel for carrying it out. The Pentagon, meanwhile, has confirmed its approval of an Israeli request to restock Israel’s supplies of ammunition. The United States will provide items from its stockpile inside Israel, including mortar rounds for tanks and ammunition for grenade launchers.
•Israeli Bombing Kills 17 in Shejaiya
Another Israeli bombing on Wednesday killed 17 people near a market in Shejaiya. The attack reportedly occurred despite Israel declaring a four-hour humanitarian pause. Around 160 people were injured. A medic said most of the slain victims died of head wounds.
Medic: "All the people who were targeted were hit in the head, with the aim of killing them. We are talking about at least 100 wounded, and we’re talking about an indescribable massacre. And this is during the four-hour truce that they announced."
•Israeli Bombing Kills 2 Journalists in Gaza
Wednesday’s dead in Gaza include two Palestinian journalists: reporter Sameh Al-Aryan and photojournalist Rami Rayan. Eight journalists have been killed during Israel’s offensive. In a statement, the International Federation of Journalists said Israel "must be held accountable for these atrocities."
•Much of Gaza Without Electricity, Running Water
Large parts of Gaza remain without power or running water after Israel bombed the area’s lone power plant earlier this week. The U.N.’s deputy secretary-general, Jan Eliasson, pleaded for an end to the bombing.
Jan Eliasson: "How can you run a hospital without clean water? How can you keep food if you can’t have refrigerators? Everything we take for granted is gone. So we have an unusually dangerous situation from a humanitarian perspective. And I don’t think we need more reminders of the importance of stopping this horror. We have to see the end of fighting."
•Pillay: Israel in "Deliberate Defiance" of Int’l Law
Speaking today, the U.N. human rights chief Navi Pillay condemned what she called Israel’s "deliberate defiance" of international law.
•Several Arrested in CodePink Protest at Israeli Embassy
Protests against the assault on Gaza continue around the world. Several people were arrested at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C., in a demonstration organized by CodePink
•House Approves Boehner Request to Sue Obama
The Republican-controlled House has approved Speaker John Boehner’s request to sue President Obama. Boehner says Obama has overstepped his authority, citing executive orders that include raising the minimum wage, expanding LGBT protections, and stopping the deportation of undocumented immigrants who came to the United States as children. But the lawsuit itself focuses solely on the delayed implementation of a portion of the Affordable Care Act — a law Republicans opposed and then tried to repeal. At a speech in Kansas City, President Obama mocked Republican opposition.
President Obama: "So, some of the things we’re doing without Congress are making a difference, but we could do so much more if Congress would just come on and help out a little bit. Just come on. Come on and help out a little bit. Stop being mad all the time. Stop just hating all the time. Come on. Let’s get some work done together."
•Congress Poised to Approve VA Healthcare Bill
Today is the last day before lawmakers take a nearly six-week summer recess. In one of Congress’ few legislative accomplishments, the Senate is poised to pass a $16 billion measure to address the veteran healthcare crisis following House approval on Wednesday. The bill includes funding for new staff and facilities and allows veterans who face lengthy wait or travel times to seek private care.
•D.C. Protest to Call on Obama to End Deportations, Take Exec Action on Immigration
Lawmakers will likely end the current session without a measure to address the migrant crisis on the Mexico border. President Obama has asked Republicans for $3.7 billion, but a Republican countermeasure would allocate less than $700 million. The current session will also end without action on comprehensive immigration reform. Immigrant rights groups are holding a march in Washington, D.C., on Saturday under the banner of "Not One More Deportation." Organizers are calling on President Obama "to reverse his record deportations and right his policies to expand relief to the fullest extent possible under the law." They also want Obama to meet with undocumented leaders.
•Undocumented Immigrants Stage Hunger Strike at Tacoma Facility
A group of undocumented immigrants has reportedly launched a new hunger strike at a detention facility in Washington state. The immigrants are said to be fasting for 75 hours up until Saturday’s march. The Northwest Detention Center in Tacoma has seen a number of hunger strikes this year in protest of poor conditions and federal inaction.
•U.S. Border Patrol Sued for Shooting Death of Mexican Teen
The U.S. Border Patrol is facing a civil rights lawsuit for the 2012 shooting death of a Mexican teenager. Sixteen-year-old José Antonio Rodríguez was killed after U.S. border agents opened fire on people throwing rocks from the Mexican side of the border. Rodríguez had ventured out to buy food. He was shot eight times. At a news conference, Rodríguez’s mother demanded justice for her son.
Araceli Rodríguez Salazar: "I believe that there must be justice. I don’t see why there shouldn’t be. You don’t need to be very intelligent to know that a murder was committed and they need to pay for what they did. Therefore, I am calm with respect to this because I know that the case will go on and on and it will take years, but I know that one day we will have justice."
Shootings involving U.S. border agents have killed more than 20 people since 2010.
•Argentina in Default After Refusing Order to Pay Vulture Funds
Argentina has gone into default on its sovereign debt after failing to resolve a payment dispute with U.S. investors. A recent Supreme Court ruling sided with vulture funds that purchased Argentina’s debt for bargain prices after its financial crisis and then refused to cut the value of their holdings, as most other creditors did. A lower court judge then barred Argentina from repaying the majority of its creditors without also repaying the vulture funds. The Argentine government has refused to fully repay the vulture funds. It has delivered a $539 million interest payment to avoid the default, but the judge’s order bars the payment’s release. After failing to meet a midnight deadline, Argentina went into default for the second time in 13 years. Negotiations are expected to continue in the coming days.
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New York, New York, United States - Democracy Now! Daily Digest: A Daily Independent Global News Hour with Amy Goodman & Juan González for Friday, August 1, 2014
democracynow.org
Stories:
As Gaza Ceasefire Collapses, Israel Kills Dozens Following Soldier's Capture in Rafah
The ceasefire in Gaza has collapsed just hours after it began, with more than 40 Palestinians killed and the capture of an Israeli soldier. Israeli tanks reportedly opened fire in the southern Rafah area just hours after the 72-hour ceasefire began. Israel is claiming Hamas first broke the ceasefire by firing rockets from southern Gaza. Meanwhile, the Israeli military has launched a major effort to locate a soldier they say was captured near Rafah. The Israeli military says the soldier was captured when Israeli forces attempting to destroy a tunnel were attacked by militants, including a suicide bomber. Talks had been scheduled for this weekend in Cairo but are now in limbo. We are joined from Gaza by two guests: Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, and Mohammed Omer, an award-winning Palestinian journalist and Rafah resident.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AARON MATÉ: Over 40 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza city of Rafah following the collapse of a U.S.- and U.N.-backed ceasefire. Israeli tanks reportedly opened fire on Rafah just hours after the 72-hour ceasefire began. Israel is claiming Hamas first broke the truce by firing rockets from southern Gaza. Meanwhile, the Israeli military has launched a major effort to locate a soldier captured near Rafah. The IDF says the soldier was captured when Israeli forces trying to destroy a tunnel were attacked by militants, including a suicide bomber. A senior Hamas leader says the soldier was captured before the ceasefire began. Talks had been scheduled to be held this weekend in Cairo. Even before today’s outbreak of violence, the U.S. and Israel said they would refuse to negotiate directly with Hamas.
AMY GOODMAN: The Palestinian death toll has now reached at least 1,460, mostly civilian, surpassing the number of Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead nearly six years ago. Sixty-four Israeli soldiers have been killed, in addition to three civilians.
We go now to Gaza City, where we’re joined by Raji Sourani. He’s the director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza, serves on the executive board of the International Federation for Human Rights, a past winner of the Right Livelihood Award and the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Raji. Can you talk about this latest news? The ceasefire, that was supposed to be 72 hours, and an Israeli soldier has been captured. Forty, at least, we understand, Palestinians have been killed in Rafah.
RAJI SOURANI: Thank you, Amy. Yes, situation is back again to square number one in Gaza. All over Gaza borders and inside the Gaza borders, there is firing by rockets, aeroplanes, gunboats, artillery tanks, and business as usual as for the last 24 days, the Israelis launching their offensive all over the place. They get deeper in many other places. You can hear and feel that all over Gaza Strip, especially in the east and northern part of it, especially focused on the Rafah area. Except, I mean, like one hour, one half-hour, people were able to move, with some journalists, I mean, to some areas in the eastern area of Khan Younis, Shejaiya, but otherwise, I mean, nobody was able to go anywhere.
In Shejaiya, after the ceasefire began at 8:00, many, many corpse has been found and discovered in the streets of Shejaiya, Abasan and in Zanaa area, many executions suspected to be happened, I mean, by the Israeli army, for people, including handicapped people, girls and boys—the destruction massive, massive. It’s a crazy picture, very surrealistic. We never, ever realized something as such can happen in such a dense populated area in Gaza, filled, filled with civilians.
So, practically no ceasefire. The offensive continues, the brutality, the war crimes happening against civilians. Israel says this was in retaliation of kidnapping an Israeli soldier by resistance, but actually, this had happened, according to the resistance sources, who declared that early in the morning from some mosques in Rafah 6:30, so resistance say this had happened before the ceasefire. That’s why Israel tried to lie, and they feel they lost a lot by kidnapping this soldier, high-ranking soldier, as the sources of resistance say, and that’s why they just got mad, and they began to bombard all over the place again.
AMY GOODMAN: Raji, we have Mohammed Omer on the phone with us, who’s also in Gaza, the award-winning Palestinian journalist. He is from Gaza, and he’s been closely following the developments there, his family there. Mohammed, what do you understand took place in Gaza—in Rafah, rather?
MOHAMMED OMER: Well, right now in Rafah, Amy, the situation is still deteriorating. There are at least about 90 people who were killed. The ambulance crew are unable to get into the area of Hay al-Salam and Hay al-Jneina, when we know about these areas. They are about three to four kilometers inside Rafah. And the people are trying to evacuate their homes, but unfortunately they are not allowed because of the constant bombings and the artillery shelling. The tank shells have reached many areas in this area. It’s like shooting a barrel, basically, in a very closed and densely populated area in Rafah. Remember that Hay al-Salam is on the top of a hill, and you could see the rest of Rafah. You could see, basically, 170,000 inhabitants just in front of you, and you can just bomb them any moment you want. And that’s what’s happening.
Most of the colleagues and journalists at Abu Youssef al-Najjar, they evacuated the hospital, because the hospital has received a warning that it’s going to be bombed. So, Abu Youssef al-Najjar is the only hospital in the southern part of the Gaza Strip in Rafah. And now there is another [inaudible] hospital, which is supposed to be for giving birth, and it’s the only one which is receiving people and victims. And it’s still ill-equipped with all necessary equipment. The situation in Rafah, as well, there is a lack of communication. Even the colleagues and journalists who are in Rafah, they could not make phone calls with one another because the network is down and the electricity has been down in the last two to three hours.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain the significance of this area, of Rafah, on the border with Egypt.
MOHAMMED OMER: This area is very close to its border with Egypt, and there is the Rafah crossing. And I’m just getting some new appeals from 71 internationals who are stuck right now. They are on the Egyptian gate. The Egyptians are not allowing them into the Egyptian side. And the Palestinian side, they have evacuated the Rafah crossing. The Rafah crossing is under constant bombing. Among them, there are Germans, there are Norwegians, there are Americans, and there are Egyptians of Palestinian origin. They are trying to escape the Gaza Strip, but they cannot. The Egyptian authorities are saying that they are not going to allow them to get outside of the Gaza Strip until there is an approval from Cairo. A number of embassies are trying to call for the Egyptian government to allow their nationals to escape the constant bombing which they are subjected under.
Rafah crossing, of course, is one of the main areas, well known as the only entrance and exit for passengers traveling. It has been mostly closed in the last few years, particularly under the administration of Sisi and Mubarak, of course. And also there is the Kerem Shalom, is about two to three kilometers away from Rafah crossing, which is the only commercial crossing, which is supposed to get commercial activities into the Gaza Strip.
Now, the timing of this is important. This happened just before the ceasefire kicks in. And that’s very important to keep note of that, because it happened just at 6:30, this operation was ended, even the capturing of soldier by the resistance, and namely Hamas here, the Qassam Brigades. So, I would say that Israel is trying to sabotage all the international efforts for a ceasefire in the next 72 hours, and that is the attempt here. I would expect the situation even to deteriorate more, because we are seeing right now the Israeli artillery shelling just getting closer and closer, and there are also a number of soldiers who are taking positions in different buildings and trying to use snipers to shoot at people.
AARON MATÉ: Mohammed, there were reports of bodies lying in the streets of Rafah. Have ambulances been able to reach the wounded?
MOHAMMED OMER: No, ambulances, they have not been able to reach the wounded, because the Abu Youssef al-Najjar Hospital has been targeted and ambulance crew has been targeted. And areas that are under constant attack is right now actually behind the Israeli bulldozers and tanks, which means these areas is off-limits. You cannot get into these areas at all, and there is no possibility for you, as an ambulance crew, to get inside this area. So there are tens of people who are thrown in the streets bleeding, some of them who are still alive, others who are dead, torn into small pieces of heads and chests and legs of human beings. And remember that those people who were wounded, just remember, they are Bedouin families who were going back to their homes in the early morning hours when they heard that the ceasefire is going to start, so they wanted to go and check on their homes, but then they were caught in fire by the Israeli military on the border with the Gaza Strip.
Ambulance crew are still appealing to the International Red Cross, and the same thing also the 71 internationals who are inside the Rafah crossing. They are appealing to the International Red Cross to evacuate them, either to get them to the Egyptian side or to the Palestinian side safely. But even the Red Cross is unable to do this, to do their job. And there is growing anger among the population on Red Cross, because they believe the Red Cross is unable to supply people with much help and to bring people in and out. Whenever we contact the Red Cross, the message we get is that the Israelis have refused our requests for coordination, even for ambulance crew.
Just to get outside Rafah a little bit and talk about over 25 bodies that were found in Khuzaa. And Khuzaa is to the east of Khan Younis. That was one of the most horrifying scenes, to see human bodies eaten by animals—human bodies eaten by animals just in Khan Younis. And this is one of the worst humiliation that can happen for a dead body, that human bodies are eaten by animals inside Khuzaa, and they are just taken outside to the Gaza European Hospital and to Nasser Hospital. In the southern part of the Gaza Strip, all these hospitals are suffering. The situation is quite overwhelming [inaudible]—
AMY GOODMAN: Mohammed Omer, we want to thank you for being with us, speaking to us from Gaza City, especially reporting on Rafah, where your family is from.
Gazan Human Rights Lawyer Pleads to U.S.: We Deserve to be Protected, Not Bombed with Your Weapons
As new violence breaks out in Gaza following the collapse of a 72-hour ceasefire, the Palestinian death toll has now reached at least 1,460, mostly civilians, surpassing the number of Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead nearly six years ago. Sixty-four Israeli soldiers have been killed, in addition to three civilians inside Israel. We are joined from Gaza City by Raji Sourani, one of the top advocates for Palestinian human rights in the Occupied Territories. The director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza, Sourani serves on the executive board of the International Federation for Human Rights. He is a past winner of the Right Livelihood Award and the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go back right now to Raji Sourani. Raji, the significance of the ceasefire being over? You just heard Mohammed Omer talking about the warning to the hospital that it’s about to be attacked in Rafah, the Abu Youssef Hospital. You’re a human rights lawyer.
RAJI SOURANI: Israel, all the time, in the last 24 days, they targeted hospitals and UNRWA facilities, where refugees are there. And hospitals, precisely, they bombed it. I mean Shuhada al-Aqsa. They bombed al-Wafa Hospital, as well. As a result of these bombings, there was killings, injuries. Even operation theaters has been hit direct, I mean, these hospitals. So that’s not, I mean, unique or special. They are, in a very deliberate, intentional way, targeting even the hospitals. And they kill people inside it, around it.
No safe haven in Gaza. No holy thing in Gaza. Everything is obscene. Israel is practicing, in very simple words, rule of jungle against civilians, against hospitals, against schools of UNRWA, against electricity station—what are, in the eye of the storm in Gaza, civilians and civilian targets, obviously. It’s very clear. Whenever the resistance hit the army and they have losses, they revenge deliberately by bombarding, killing civilians. This is, I mean, very basic, fundamental conclusion. Any who is living in Gaza can feel it, can see it and watch it, every hour, every day.
And in Rafah, all this bombing for people of Rafah happened immediately after the resistance engaged and they kidnapped one of the Israeli officers there. They can target and they have the right to target the resistance group. We are not in defense of resistance group. They are for that, and they can defend themselves. Why we are here as a human rights organizations, to defend civilians at the time of war, not peace. And civilians, once and again, are the target of the most strongest fifth army on Earth, with all high tech they are using. This is a shame, shame for army and the state do such policy and such a practice. It’s shame for states who license and give them the license to kill, by giving them political approvement, endorsement for doing what they are doing in this part of the world. All what we are asking, seeking protection for civilians at a time of war. That’s why international law, international humanitarian law, is there, to protect civilians at a time of war. There is no holy blood and unholy blood, no holy suffering, unholy suffering. Every human blood is suffering, including the Palestinian blood and suffering. This is a great shame. These war crimes happening, and it’s broadcasted at the real time to the whole world. This should stop.
AARON MATÉ: Raji, how does this assault compare to previous Israeli attacks on Gaza?
RAJI SOURANI: I’m 60. I lived all my entire life in this part of the world, and I’m working in this field for the last 40 years. I attended the last wars in 2008, 2009 and 2012. I can assure you one thing: Yes, war crime happened, and entire families has been erased—Samouni, Daya and others. Houses were destroyed. Civilian targets were targeted. And we documented that. But the scale never, ever was on this level. It’s obvious from day one that they are deliberately targeting civilians and civilian targets. It’s different. We never, ever have entire areas, like Shejaiya, like Khuzaa, like Zanaa, like Beit Hanoun, like Beit Lahia, razed. Doesn’t exist anymore. Hundreds of bombs, weighing one ton, dropped on the head of the people while they are there. Israel recognized 40,000 tank shells thus far has been bombarded—you know, gunboats, aeroplanes, Apache, F-16s, artillery tanks bombing all over the place. No safe haven in Gaza, no safe place wherever you go. And that’s why this is very special and this is very unique.
What we are doing, as human rights activists and organizations, we are counting corpses, bodies, injuries—not all of them, because we even cannot reach entire areas where there is hundreds of bodies are under rubbles or, you know, closed area for the Israeli army, we cannot access to it. And the ICRC totally almost paralyzed. They have no access there. They cannot protect any civilians. And that’s due to the restrictions of the Israeli army. So, I’m really worried, and I’m warning. Israel began with tens of people being killed; now we are talking about hundreds of people are killed. Now we are talking, in two hours, 90 people have been killed. We didn’t count everybody there, and many others, I mean, still in the Rafah area. We didn’t manage to bring everybody to the hospital through ICRC or Red Crescent or ambulances. And we have hundreds of injuries.
The bombing, many think it is in the Rafah area, Rafah one of the areas where the bombing is happening right now. But eastern Gaza, just in front of me, I mean, the bombing right now in this minute happen, and didn’t stop for the last four, five hours. East northern area, the same thing happen at middle area and Khan Younis area; very severe firing, Amy, happening there. And now this is getting much more and more deeper to the populated area. That’s the dilemma. That’s the problem.
AMY GOODMAN: What should—Raji, what should—
RAJI SOURANI: They are targeting the civilians.
AMY GOODMAN: What should Americans understand about the conflict? You’ve traveled the world. Most recently, the U.S. Senate unanimously supported Israel in its conflict with Hamas, and the U.S. is resupplying ammunition to Israel as it runs low in this attack.
RAJI SOURANI: Simply, we are human beings. All what we are seeking, simple: freedom, end of occupation, rule of law—as simple as that. We think we deserve to be protected. We deserve to be treated as a human being. We deserve to have an end for this Israeli criminal siege imposed on us for the last eight years. We think an end for this Israeli criminal, illegal occupation should have an end. We have the right to engage with life positively, to be created. Too much blood, too much suffering. If people feel they have only the rule of jungle—Israel doing that—and the West supporting these war crimes and crimes against humanity, in deliberate way, as the high commissioner of UNRWA stated yesterday in a clear-cut way, then I think if people hate the West—U.S., U.K., France, Germany—who support this inhuman, barbaric offensive against the civilians, then I think it’s a shame for any state who support that. This should have an end. I call—
AMY GOODMAN: And Raji Sourani, for Israel—for Israel—
RAJI SOURANI: —them to come, see, witness what’s going on. Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: For Israel saying it’s Hamas that broke the ceasefire, and it’s Hamas that is firing rockets and threatening their civilians in Israel?
RAJI SOURANI: We are not occupying Israel. We are not killing the Israelis. All what we want, simple: end the occupation. Leave Palestinians, I mean, be free. After 20 years of Oslo Accords, what we have: de facto apartheid system in the West Bank, cleansing—the ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem and Judaization, and in Gaza a state of socioeconomic suffocation and war crimes taking place every day for the last 25 years. Israel should have an end for its criminal, belligerent, illegal occupation and practice against Palestinian civilians. ’Til then, we are entitled to protection as Palestinian civilians in the time of war.
AMY GOODMAN: Raji Sourani, I want to thank you for being with us, award-winning human rights lawyer, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza, won the Right Livelihood Award and the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award, as well.
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. We’ll continue on the issue of the Gaza conflict in a moment.
Recipe for Lasting Ceasefire? Lifting Israeli Siege & Int'l Accountability Could Break Status Quo
The Gaza Health Ministry now says at least 50 Palestinians have been killed today in Gaza following the collapse of a U.S.- and U.N.-backed ceasefire. Hamas and Israel are blaming each other for violating the truce. Israel has launched a major operation to rescue a soldier captured earlier today. The Israeli Defense Forces just identified the soldier as Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin. Hamas says the soldier was captured before the ceasefire began. The 72-hour ceasefire announced Thursday was supposed to bring Israeli and Palestinian representatives together in Cairo, but the outbreak of violence puts those talks in jeopardy. We speak with Yousef Munayyer, executive director of the Jerusalem Fund and its educational program, the Palestine Center. "We cannot go back to a status quo where a ceasefire ends rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but does not end the system of violence that is the siege … enforced through the regular use of Israeli fire," Munayyer says. "You cannot call it a ceasefire while that system of violence still exists."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. For those who listen on the radio, we were just showing the images of well-known artists, activists, leaders holding up the names of the dead in the Gaza conflict. I’m Amy Goodman, with Aaron Maté.
AARON MATÉ: Well, the Gaza Health Ministry now says at least 50 Palestinians have been killed today in Gaza following the collapse of a U.S.- and U.N.-backed ceasefire, Hamas and Israel each blaming the other side for violating the truce. Israel has launched a major operation to rescue a soldier captured earlier today. The IDF just identified the soldier as Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin. Hamas says the soldier was captured before the ceasefire began.
AMY GOODMAN: For more on Gaza, we’re joined by Yousef Munayyer. He’s executive director of the Jerusalem Fund and its educational program, the Palestine Center. Yousef, your response to the end of the ceasefire, you know, really just moments after it began, and the significance of what’s taking place right now in Rafah? And this number of more than—well, it might be at this point—it might be more than—the number of total dead is more than 1,450, maybe more than 1,500.
YOUSEF MUNAYYER: Well, it’s, of course, tragic, Amy, and horrifying, what is going on right now. And I think it—you know, what we’ve seen this morning really kind of is a microcosm of what we’ve seen throughout this entire operation.
You know, let us, just for the sake of argument, accept the notion that the Israelis have legitimate strategic and military aims here, just for the sake of argument. I don’t think that’s the case, but if they do, they still have an obligation here to protect the civilian population. What they’re trying to do militarily is essentially take out a small group of militants—perhaps, maybe at greatest number, 10,000 or so—among a population of 1.8 million Palestinians, and there is mostly civilian targets throughout all of the Gaza Strip. What is required here, if we are to think about this in medical terms, is surgery with a scalpel. Instead, they are going about this surgery with a jackhammer. And I think that any doctor that would be doing a surgery with a jackhammer would not only be immediately losing their license, but would be thrown in prison, as well.
Unfortunately, what we saw yesterday and the day before, the response from Washington was to continue to open up arms caches to supply the Israelis with some of the same artillery that was responsible for targeting a U.N. school and killing 17 civilians as they slept. So, this is really criminal. What we are seeing here is absolutely criminal. Even if we were to accept the notion that their military aims are justified, the way that this is being carried out is a violation of the laws of war, and we’ve seen it time and time again on the ground.
This morning’s example is a perfect one. There was clearly an operation at some point this morning in Rafah, where the Israelis lost some soldiers, and in response they have undertaken this horrific bombardment in the Rafah area, which has left scores of Palestinians dead. These kind of measures are simply unjustifiable, and it is long past time for the international community not just to step in with, you know, a discussion about temporary ceasefires, but to rein the Israelis in by demanding an end to these attacks on a civilian population.
AARON MATÉ: Yousef, if these ceasefire talks go ahead, what are you expecting to happen? Benjamin Netanyahu is going in with something like 87 percent support amongst Israeli Jews. Ninety-five percent of Israeli Jews say that the operation is just. So, from his own people, he isn’t facing much pressure to back down.
YOUSEF MUNAYYER: Right, and I think there are reasons for that. You know, in the lead-up to this, the Israeli public was ginned up by leaders who were told, first and foremost, that Hamas as an organization was responsible for the disappearance of three Israeli teens, who we subsequently found out were murdered. That turned out to be not true. And, of course, the Israelis not only accused Hamas, but they punished Hamas and all of Palestinian society through a massive collective punishment campaign. So, the Israeli public has been primed to believe that not only is Hamas guilty, but that all Palestinians are guilty, and therefore deserving of what is to befall them at the face of this brutal military campaign.
I think once you get to ceasefire talks, there have to be serious conversations about how you address the legitimate grievances of Palestinians on the ground. We cannot go back to a status quo where a ceasefire ends rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but does not end the system of violence that is the siege. You know, the siege in the Gaza Strip is enforced through the regular use of Israeli fire on Palestinian civilians, on fishermen and on farmers inside the Gaza Strip, through extrajudicial assassinations. You cannot call it a ceasefire while that system of violence still exists. So, if we’re going to have serious conversations about a ceasefire—and I think there should be, and should have been quite a long time ago—there needs to be a conversation about that, in particular.
And there needs to be a conversation about how you hold the Israelis accountable for ceasefire violations. It’s very important that any agreement takes into account the dramatic imbalance of power between a very strong, militarized state in the Israelis and a non-state actor and stateless people in the Palestinians. If the Palestinians commit a ceasefire violation, the Israelis are able to hold them accountable on their own. But if the Israelis commit a ceasefire violation, as they have done repeatedly after the beginning of the 2012 ceasefire agreement, how are the Palestinians able to hold them accountable? They are not. So with one Israeli ceasefire violation after the other, Palestinians are simply provoked to using the only methods that they have available to them to respond. That is a formula for a breakdown of a ceasefire time and time again. So until you have accountability, particularly for the Israeli side, you’re not going to have a sustainable ceasefire.
AMY GOODMAN: What would the elements of a lasting ceasefire, a truce, look like? What are the Palestinians demanding? And would you separate the Palestinians, from Hamas, from the PA? Who has the power, even inside Gaza and outside, the leadership, for example, in places like Doha in Qatar and the leadership right now on the ground?
YOUSEF MUNAYYER: Well, Amy, this is a very important question. I’m glad you brought it up. There has been, in the discussion about this, a lot of sort of misleading information characterized by this dichotomy between Israel and Hamas. The reality is, the situation on the ground, you know, it’s not just Hamas that’s involved in the militancy on the Palestinian side. Every single Palestinian faction, political faction, that has a military wing, from Hamas to Fatah, to Islamic Jihad, to the Popular Resistance Committees, the Democratic and Popular Fronts for the Liberation of Palestine—a spectrum that spans from Islamists to nationalists, to secularists, to leftists—all of them are taking part in the militancy here. This is not a response by Hamas. This is a response by the Palestinian people to the attacks of an Israeli military occupation and siege on Palestinian society. This siege does not discriminate between members of factions. The bombs that are being dropped do not discriminate between young or old, let alone they discriminate between, you know, members of this group or that. Palestinians today, I think, in the Gaza Strip are more united than ever before behind the idea that the siege has to come to an end, that they have suffered for far too long under a system of violence that collectively punishes 1.8 million civilians simply for a political aim, and that is not justifiable.
So I think what they are asking for, what they are demanding, is that that siege come to an end, that they have the same rights, the same basic rights, as everybody else would expect. And I think that the problem in the past has been, you know, Palestinians have been confronted by a false choice: Either, they are told, you know, "Live on your knees," or, "If you’re going to fight, you’ll die standing." If that is the choice that they are presented with, time and again, they’re going to choose to fight and die with dignity than live in humiliation and under subjugation of this occupation and siege. So that choice that these ceasefires in the past have presented to Palestinians, that has to change. We have to give them a different alternative here, one that recognizes their basic rights, as should have been the case long ago.
AMY GOODMAN: Yousef Munayyer, I want to thank you for being with us, executive director of the Jerusalem Fund and its educational program, the Palestine Center. When we come back, Amnesty International has just issued a statement about the United States resupplying ammunition to Israel, and then we’ll look at the CIA admitting they’ve been spying on Senate staffers. Stay with us.
Amnesty International: U.S. Should Stop Arming Israel Amid "Growing Evidence of War Crimes in Gaza"
On the same day Israeli forces killed 20 Palestinians at a U.N. school this week, the U.S. confirmed it had provided Israel with fresh supplies of munitions, including mortar rounds for tanks and ammo for grenade launchers. Now, one of the nation’s leading human rights organizations has called on the United States to stop arms transfers to Israel amid "growing evidence of war crimes in Gaza." On Thursday, Amnesty International said the U.S. government must immediately end its ongoing deliveries of large quantities of arms to Israel, which are providing the tools to commit further serious violations of international law in Gaza. Amnesty’s call comes as the United Nations’ top human rights official has also criticized the United States. "They have not only provided the heavy weaponry which is now being used by Israel in Gaza, but they’ve also provided almost $1 billion in providing the Iron Domes to protect Israelis from the rockets attacks, but no such protection has been provided to Gazans against the shelling," said Navi Pillay, U.N. human rights high commissioner. "So I am reminding United States that it’s a party to international humanitarian law and human rights law." The United States is the largest exporter of military equipment to Israel, by far. According to data made public by the U.S. government, its arms transfers to Israel from January to May 2014 included nearly $27 million for "rocket launchers," $9.3 million worth in "parts of guided missiles" and nearly $762,000 for "bombs, grenades and munitions of war." We speak to Sunjeev Bery, director of Middle East/North Africa advocacy at Amnesty International USA.
Image Credit: Amnesty International
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Aaron Maté. We’ve been showing the photos of celebrities, of artists, of writers, in a project called Freedom for Palestine, people like Gloria Steinem and hip-hop legend Chuck D and playwright Wally Shawn, as well as the Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Tony Kushner, Eve Ensler and others, Jonathan Demme, holding the names of the dead in the Palestine conflict. Aaron?
AARON MATÉ: As we turn now to our next segment, on the same day Israeli forces killed 20 Palestinians at a U.N. school this week, the U.S. confirmed it provided Israel with fresh supplies of munitions, including mortar rounds for tanks and ammo for grenade launchers. Now, one of the nation’s leading human rights organizations is calling on the U.S. to stop arms transfers to Israel amid what it called, quote, "growing evidence of war crimes in Gaza." On Thursday, Amnesty International said the U.S. government must immediately end its ongoing deliveries of large quantities of arms to Israel, saying they are providing the tools to commit further and serious violations of international law.
AMY GOODMAN: The United States is the largest exporter of military equipment to Israel, by far. According to data made public by the U.S. government, its arms transfers to Israel from January to May in 2014 included nearly $27 million for rocket launchers, $9.3 million worth in parts of guided missiles, $762,000 for bombs, grenades and munitions of war.
Well, for more, we stay in Washington, D.C., with Sunjeev Bery, director of Middle East/North Africa advocacy at Amnesty International.
Sunjeev, welcome to Democracy Now! Can you talk about the statement Amnesty has just issued on this latest news of the U.S. resupply of ammunition for Israel as it runs low in the attack on Gaza?
SUNJEEV BERY: Absolutely, Amy. Thank you for having me on the show. Amnesty International is deeply concerned about the continuing shipments of weapons and arms by the U.S. government to the Israeli military. On the one hand, you have U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry talking about ceasefire proposals; on the other hand, the United States is allowing the Israeli military to restock on some of the very types of arms and weapons that it has used in what are likely to be war crimes in its conflict with Hamas and Palestinian armed groups.
AARON MATÉ: Well, Sunjeev, on Thursday, the U.N. high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, criticized the U.S. for its role in the Israeli assault on Gaza.
NAVI PILLAY: They have not only provided the heavy weaponry, which is now being used by Israel in Gaza, but they’ve also provided almost $1 billion in providing the Iron Domes to protect Israelis from the rocket attacks, but no such protection has been provided to Gazans against the shelling. So I am reminding the United States that it’s a party to international humanitarian law and human rights law.
AARON MATÉ: That’s the U.N. high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay. Sunjeev, the significance here of the U.N.’s top rights official saying the U.S. could be implicated in these violations?
SUNJEEV BERY: That’s a very important statement for the U.N.'s top human rights official to make, and Amnesty International appreciates this kind of commentary from public international voices. It's high time that there be a U.N. arms embargo imposed on all of the parties to this conflict. And in the meantime, no individual country should be providing any weapons to anybody involved in the fighting, because each of the parties have demonstrated contempt and utter disregard for human rights, whether you’re talking about the Israeli military and what are likely to be significant war crimes across the Gaza Strip through its indiscriminate strikes and shelling, whether you’re talking about Hamas rockets being fired into Israel that are indiscriminate, or some of the other Palestinian armed groups. It’s unconscionable for the U.S. to be supplying more weapons to Israel while simultaneously giving lip service to ceasefire talks.
AMY GOODMAN: You’re issuing a statement on the International Criminal Court. What is it, today, Sunjeev?
SUNJEEV BERY: We are calling for the International Criminal Court to make a determination and to begin investigations into these potential human rights violations and abuses. It’s time for the ICC, the International Criminal Court, to weigh in on this matter and to bring to bear its prosecutorial and investigative abilities to bring about international jurisdiction. We also want the U.N. Security Council to make a formal determination to pass a binding resolution that does a number of things, one of which is to refer this matter to the International Criminal Court so that it can begin investigating and potentially prosecuting.
AMY GOODMAN: And finally, your response to Israel saying it’s fighting terrorists, it needs to be re-armed to continue to do that?
SUNJEEV BERY: Israel has repeatedly demonstrated over and over again that it’s not going to hold any of its soldiers accountable when they are involved in human rights violations. It’s also demonstrated over and over again that it’s going to use weapons that it receives in human rights violations both with regards to Gaza as well as the occupied Palestinian territories, including the West Bank. So, for example, in the last three years, leading up to the time prior to the current conflict in Gaza, Amnesty International documented some 8,000 incidents, according to U.N. data, in which Israeli soldiers had injured Palestinian civilians and others in the West Bank, everything from bullets to other things like tear gas and other kinds of ammunition. So we’re talking about a human rights crisis here that didn’t just start a few weeks ago but has been going on for years.
AMY GOODMAN: Sunjeev Bery, I want to thank you for being with us, director of Middle East/North Africa advocacy at Amnesty International USA, as we move now to our last segment.
John Brennan Faces Calls to Resign After CIA Admits to Spying on Senate Torture Probe
Central Intelligence Agency Director John Brennan is facing calls to resign after admitting CIA officials spied on a Senate panel probing the agency’s torture and rendition program. The allegation surfaced in March when members of the Senate Intelligence Committee openly accused CIA officials of illegally monitoring their staffers’ computers. The Senate report has yet to be released but reportedly documents extensive abuses and a cover-up by CIA officials to Congress. At the time, Brennan denied the spying allegations and said those who make them will be proved wrong. But he reversed his stance this week after an internal CIA inquiry found the spying indeed took place with the involvement of 10 agency employees. Brennan apologized to lawmakers in a briefing earlier this week. The White House is standing by Brennan, citing President Obama’s "great confidence" in his leadership. But at least two members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Democrats Mark Udall of Colorado and Martin Heinrich of New Mexico, are calling for his resignation. We speak with the reporter who first broke the news of the CIA’s admission to spying on Senate computers: Jonathan Landay, senior national security and intelligence correspondent for McClatchy Newspapers.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AARON MATÉ: Central Intelligence Agency Director John Brennan is facing calls to resign after admitting CIA officials spied on a Senate panel probing the agency’s torture and rendition program. The allegations surfaced in March when members of the Senate Intelligence Committee openly accused CIA officials of illegally monitoring their staffers’ computers. At the time, John Brennan denied the spying allegations and said, "Those who make them will be proved wrong."
JOHN BRENNAN: As far as the allegations of, you know, the CIA hacking into, you know, Senate computers, nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, we wouldn’t do that. I mean, that’s—that’s—that’s just beyond the—you know, the scope of reason in terms of what we would do. ... When the facts come out on this, I think a lot of people who are claiming that there has been this tremendous sort of spying and monitoring and hacking will be proved wrong.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, CIA Director John Brennan reversed his stance this week after an internal CIA inquiry found the spying indeed took place, with the involvement of 10 agency employees. Brennan apologized to lawmakers in a briefing earlier this week. The CIA has also retracted counter-allegations that Senate staffers illegally removed classified information from a top-secret facility. The White House is standing by Brennan, citing President Obama’s, quote, "great confidence" in his leadership. But at least two members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Democrats Mark Udall of Colorado and Martin Heinrich of New Mexico, are calling for Brennan’s resignation.
We’re joined by the reporter who first broke the news of the CIA’s admission to spying on Senate computers: Jonathan Landay, senior national security and intelligence correspondent for McClatchy Newspapers, also in Washington, D.C.
Thanks for being with us. Talk about this revelation that you just exposed.
JONATHAN LANDAY: So, after all of this, what had been this behind-the-scenes battle, unprecedented battle, between the CIA and its Senate overseers, apparently John Brennan asked his inspector general, David Buckley, to look into Senator Feinstein’s allegations that the CIA had in fact, without authorization, and in breach of an agreement with the Senate staff, had intruded into a database that was for the use by the Senate staff only. Apparently, David Buckley came back with his findings that a number of CIA IT specialists, three IT specialists, five CIA officers, and I believe it was two attorneys, had in fact either, without permission, breached the Senate committee’s database or caused it to be breached. We also find out that the complaint that the CIA referred to the Justice Department, containing allegations that the Senate staff had, without permission, without authorization, removed top-secret classified documents from the secret CIA facility in which they were doing their work, was apparently made on—with incorrect information, that it was not factually based.
So that’s gone away, although the Justice Department in fact had dropped the case at the beginning of last month, although, very interestingly, the Justice Department said that it had found no reason to proceed with a criminal investigation, or insufficient evidence to proceed with a criminal investigation at this time. So, it’s possible that the Justice Department could take a new look at all of this. We have to wait and see. There have been calls by some members of Congress and civil rights organizations that the Justice Department ought to take a new look at what went on. And, you know, the thing about all of this is that I think President Obama, the White House staff, the CIA, a lot of people on Capitol Hill had hoped to put this issue behind them once the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report is issued, and I don’t think this is going to go away anytime soon.
AARON MATÉ: Back in March, Senator Dianne Feinstein, the chair of the Intel Committee, she gave that speech on the floor openly accusing the CIA of breaking the law and of trying of undermine her investigation. But on Thursday, she didn’t repeat those charges. Does that signal that she’s backing down here? And what does that portend for what comes next?
JONATHAN LANDAY: Well, yeah, it’s interesting. You know, when she got on the Senate floor, she said—you know, it’s an extraordinary speech, where she said the CIA may have broken the law, may have violated the constitutional separation of powers between the executive branch and its congressional overseers. In her statement yesterday, she referred to the breach of the constitutional separation of powers, but there was no reference at all in her statement to the potential breach of law by the CIA, nor did she repeat her charge that she made in August—I mean, sorry, in March, that the CIA had sought to thwart her investigation into the CIA’s use of waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists or terrorist suspects who were detained in secret CIA prisons overseas under the Bush administration. It appeared that at that point, you know, there was perhaps an air of wanting to try and soothe the roiled waters with the CIA. The relationship between the CIA and the committee have been very, very bad.
But I think that following the briefing yesterday—there was a three-hour briefing to members of the committee, both Republicans and Democrats, by David Buckley, the CIA IG. You know, the senators came out of there, and they were pretty angry. A lot of them were pretty angry. It was an unusual unity and bipartisan fury, because there was a number of Republican senators, who in the past have been defenders of the CIA, who joined the Democrats in expressing outrage at what happened. And again, one of the main questions that all of them were asking was: Who authorized this? When did—and also, when did senior CIA managers, when did the leadership of the CIA find out about what happened? That is not—those points are not discussed in the IG report, and I think we’re going to see today more of those questions.
AMY GOODMAN: Very quickly, Jonathan, we’re just talking about the CIA—not just, but CIA spying on the Senate staffers, not the content of the report. Now, AP—amazingly enough‚ the White House just emailed by mistake the talking points of the report to AP. Very quickly, can you say what we’re going to see in this report—why the CIA is so concerned, why they’re spying on Senate staffers?
JONATHAN LANDAY: Well, we’re not—you know, the spying on Senate staffers appears to be a separate issue from the report itself. And we obtained the classified—20 classified conclusions of the report a couple of months ago, and in them, what basically they say is, A, that the use of waterboarding and other interrogation methods that many people view as torture had produced no valuable intelligence, or at least intelligence that couldn’t have been obtained through normal interrogation procedures; that the CIA misled the Bush administration, that included the Justice Department and the White House, the Congress and the American people, about the efficacy of the use of these methods. There are a variety of other findings that planted misleading information in the press, and that it indeed questioned the entire legal foundation that was produced by the Justice Department that allowed them to proceed with these procedures, that indeed the Justice Department’s legal findings may have been based on misleading information, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Jonathan Landay, I want to thank you for being with us, senior national security and intelligence correspondent for McClatchy Newspapers. We will link to your most recent piece, "CIA Admits It Broke into Senate Computers; Senators Call for Spy Chief’s Ouster."
That does it for the broadcast. We have a job opening for an on-air graphic designer and CG operator. Go to democracynow.org for details.
Headlines:
•Ceasefire Collapses in Gaza; Palestinian Death Toll at 1,460
More than 40 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza city of Rafah following the collapse of a U.S.- and U.N.-backed ceasefire. Reuters reports Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Rafah area just hours after the 72-hour ceasefire began. Israel is claiming Hamas first broke the ceasefire by firing rockets at Israeli forces. The Israeli military has launched a major effort to locate a soldier they fear was captured near Rafah. The Palestinian death toll from Israel’s offensive in Gaza has now reached at least 1,460, mostly civilians. The toll surpasses the number of Palestinians killed during Israel’s Operation Cast Lead nearly six years ago. Sixty-four Israeli soldiers have been killed, in addition to three civilians.
•U.N., Amnesty International Criticize U.S. Military Support for Israel
The shelling of the U.N. school killed at least 20 people, many of them children who were sleeping. Just hours later, the Pentagon confirmed it was resupplying Israel with ammunition. The United States has come under increasing pressure from the international community to curb its military support for Israel. Amnesty International has called on the Obama administration to halt its arms deliveries. U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay criticized the U.S. role.
Navi Pillay: "They have not only provided the heavy weaponry, which is now being used by Israel in Gaza, but they’ve also provided almost $1 billion in providing the Iron Domes to protect Israelis from the rocket attacks, but no such protection has been provided to Gazans against the shelling. So I am reminding the United States that it’s a party to international humanitarian law and human rights law."
•5 Latin American Countries Recall Ambassadors to Israel over Gaza Assault
In Latin America, five countries — Brazil, Chile, Ecuador, Peru and El Salvador — have all recalled their ambassadors to Israel in protest of the offensive in Gaza. The presidents of Uruguay, Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela have issued a joint statement calling for Israel to end its "disproportionate use of force." Bolivia has changed its policies to require Israelis entering the country to obtain a visa, and Bolivian President Evo Morales called Israel a "terrorist state." Protests against Israel’s assault have erupted across Latin America and around the world. We’ll have more on Gaza after headlines.
•Death Toll from Ebola Outbreak in West Africa Tops 700
n West Africa, the official death toll from the worst Ebola outbreak in history has risen to 729 with more than 1,300 people afflicted. The World Health Organization has announced a $100 million plan to combat the virus. Sierra Leone has seen the most cases -– about 500 so far. The Health Ministry spokesperson there said the country is facing a shortage in medical staff.
Sidi Yahya Tunis: "Already we had a very, very inadequate health workforce, and we don’t have enough specialists in country, as far as medical doctors and even specialist nurses are concerned. And so, with this outbreak, that requires so much specialty, it’s simply more challenging for us, and it has been very, very difficult on our health workers because they’ve lost a lot of their colleagues in the process and their morale is down. But, you know, it is their job."
•Ukraine: Investigators Reach Plane Crash Site amid Violence
In eastern Ukraine, at least 14 people have been killed, most of them Ukrainian soldiers, amid clashes with pro-Russian rebels. The violence took place near the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, where international investigators are working to recover the bodies and belongings of the victims. An initial team managed to reach the site for the first time on Thursday after violence repeatedly delayed their arrival.
•Congress Fails to Pass Bill on Migrant Crisis Before Recess
The U.S. Congress is poised to head into summer recess without a bill to address the surge of Central American migrants at the border. President Obama requested $3.7 billion for the crisis. A Senate bill would have offered $2.7 billion, but it failed on a procedural vote. House Republicans have delayed the start of summer recess to hold more talks today on their version of the bill — which would provide less than $700 million — after right-wing opposition derailed a vote on Thursday. Congress has managed to approve bills to improve veterans’ healthcare and temporarily replenish the fund for highway and mass transit projects just before it was set to dry up.
•112 Arrested in Immigration Protest at White House
As Congress deadlocked on the migrant crisis, 112 people were arrested outside the White House calling for President Obama to halt his record deportations. The demonstrators called on Obama to take action to stop the separation of families and provide relief for tens of thousands of children fleeing violence and poverty in Central America. More protests are planned for this weekend.
•CIA Admits to Spying on Senate Torture Investigators
The CIA has admitted to spying on a computer network used by a Senate committee investigating the agency’s post-9/11 torture and rendition program. An internal CIA probe found staff improperly accessed a protected database and read the emails of investigators working on the torture report. The probe validated claims of CIA spying made by Senate Intelligence Committee Chair Dianne Feinstein and prompted CIA Director John Brennan to issue an apology after he had adamantly denied those claims. A number of senators have called for Brennan to resign. We’ll have more on the story after headlines.
•White House Accidentally Leaks Torture Report Talking Points to AP
The Senate report on CIA torture and rendition remains classified, but new revelations emerged from it this week when the White House accidentally emailed talking points to the Associated Press. The leaked document reveals the report’s conclusion that CIA officials instructed U.S. ambassadors in countries hosting secret prisons not to tell their superiors at the State Department. A summary of the report is expected for release in the coming weeks.
•European Human Rights Court Issues 1st-Ever Ruling on CIA Torture Program
The European Court of Human Rights has issued the first-ever ruling on the CIA torture and rendition program, confirming the existence of a secret U.S. prison in Poland. Last week, the court found Poland violated the European Convention on Human Rights by failing to intervene in the secret detention, torture and transfer of two terrorism suspects currently held at Guantánamo –- Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Nashiri.
•Argentina Denies "Default," Blames U.S. Judge for Blocked Debt Payment
Argentina’s stocks have tumbled after it defaulted on its sovereign debt by failing to repay U.S. hedge funds led by NML Capital. The firms bought Argentina’s debt for bargain prices and then refused to cut the value of their holdings — as most creditors did — after Argentina’s prior default in 2001. A U.S. judge blocked Argentina from repaying its other creditors without also paying the vulture funds, barring the release of an interest payment Argentina tried to make to avoid default. On Thursday, Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner said the term "default" is illegitimate because Argentina was blocked from paying.
President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner: "The causes of default are listed, for the 92.4 percent of bondholders, in the bond, in the contract itself. There is no cause where default is impossibility to get paid, because default is not paying. Preventing someone from paying is not default. I told them they would have to invent a new word, and they will have to invent this word."
Argentina has signaled it could take the case to the International Court of Justice.
•U.S. Unveils Travel Sanctions on Venezuelan Officials
The Obama administration has announced a travel ban on top officials in Venezuela. The sanctions reportedly impact two dozen people, including judges, Cabinet ministers and members of the military and police. The United States has accused the officials of involvement in human rights abuses during months of right-wing opposition protests, which left dozens of people dead on both sides of Venezuela’s political divide.
•Texas: Hundreds Protest Right-Wing American Legislative Exchange Council
Hundreds of people have been rallying in Dallas, Texas, this week to protest the annual convention of the right-wing American Legislative Exchange Council known as ALEC. The secretive group joins corporate lobbyists with state lawmakers to craft model legislation that is then introduced in legislatures nationwide. Activists have been organizing protests under the banner of "Don’t Mess With Texas, ALEC."
•White House: Shelling of U.N. School "Totally Unacceptable"
On Thursday, White House spokesperson Josh Earnest criticized Wednesday’s shelling of a United Nations school in Gaza, acknowledging there was little doubt the shells came from Israel.
Josh Earnest: "The shelling of a U.N. facility that is housing innocent civilians who are fleeing violence is totally unacceptable and totally indefensible, and it is clear that we need our allies in Israel to do more to live up to the high standards that they have set for themselves."
•European Human Rights Court Issues 1st-Ever Ruling on CIA Torture Program
The European Court of Human Rights has issued the first-ever ruling on the CIA torture and rendition program, confirming the existence of a secret U.S. prison in Poland. Last week, the court found Poland violated the European Convention on Human Rights by failing to intervene in the secret detention, torture and transfer of two terrorism suspects currently held at Guantánamo –- Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Nashiri.
•Argentina Denies "Default," Blames U.S. Judge for Blocked Debt Payment
Argentina’s stocks have tumbled after it defaulted on its sovereign debt by failing to repay U.S. hedge funds led by NML Capital. The firms bought Argentina’s debt for bargain prices and then refused to cut the value of their holdings — as most creditors did — after Argentina’s prior default in 2001. A U.S. judge blocked Argentina from repaying its other creditors without also paying the vulture funds, barring the release of an interest payment Argentina tried to make to avoid default. On Thursday, Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner said the term "default" is illegitimate because Argentina was blocked from paying.
President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner: "The causes of default are listed, for the 92.4 percent of bondholders, in the bond, in the contract itself. There is no cause where default is impossibility to get paid, because default is not paying. Preventing someone from paying is not default. I told them they would have to invent a new word, and they will have to invent this word."
•Argentina has signaled it could take the case to the International Court of Justice.
U.S. Unveils Travel Sanctions on Venezuelan Officials
The Obama administration has announced a travel ban on top officials in Venezuela. The sanctions reportedly impact two dozen people, including judges, Cabinet ministers and members of the military and police. The United States has accused the officials of involvement in human rights abuses during months of right-wing opposition protests, which left dozens of people dead on both sides of Venezuela’s political divide.
•Texas: Hundreds Protest Right-Wing American Legislative Exchange Council
Hundreds of people have been rallying in Dallas, Texas, this week to protest the annual convention of the right-wing American Legislative Exchange Council known as ALEC. The secretive group joins corporate lobbyists with state lawmakers to craft model legislation that is then introduced in legislatures nationwide. Activists have been organizing protests under the banner of "Don’t Mess With Texas, ALEC."
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