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Historic Colombian Peace Deal Must Include Women, Address Sexual Crimes on Both Sides, Say Advocates
Could the signing of a historic peace accord in Colombia between the government and FARC rebels bring an end to Latin America’s longest armed conflict? "There’s a long way to go before we see a real development of a strong and lasting peace," says our guest Mario Murillo, author of "Colombia and the United States: War, Unrest, and Destabilization." First, the agreement must be approved in a referendum in Colombia. We also speak with Adriana Benjumea, director of Bogotá-based NGO Humanas Colombia, which promotes human rights and, in particular, women’s rights. "Armed actors who have participated in the armed conflicts in Colombia have committed sexual crimes" that must be addressed, says Benjumea.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We begin today’s show with the historic peace accord in Colombia between government officials and the FARC rebels that is the latest step in efforts to end one of the world’s longest conflicts. Fighting first began in 1964 and has claimed some 220,000 lives. More than 5 million people are estimated to have been displaced. Early Monday morning, FARC leader Timoleón Jiménez ordered his followers to lay down their arms.
TIMOLEÓN JIMÉNEZ: [translated] In my position as commander of the FARC-EP, I order all of our leaders, all of our units, every and each one of our combatants, to cease fire and hostilities in a definitive manner against the Colombian state from midnight tonight.
AMY GOODMAN: Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos applauded the deal, saying it heralds a new and brighter chapter in the country’s turbulent history.
PRESIDENT JUAN MANUEL SANTOS: [translated] This morning at midnight, the bilateral and definitive ceasefire started in this war with the FARC. Today, hours later, we are inaugurating the inclusive, most important and complete center of rehabilitation in all of Latin America. It is a joyful coincidence, because it shows the closing of a chapter and the opening of another very different one than the one all Colombians have experienced and suffered for the last 50 years.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, the ceasefire that would bring an end to Latin America’s longest armed conflict must now be approved in a referendum in Colombia, where it’s likely to face staunch opposition from right-wing sectors led by the former Colombian president, Álvaro Uribe.
For more, we’re joined by two guests. Mario Murillo is a longtime Colombian activist, professor of communications at Hofstra University, author of Colombia and the United States: War, Unrest, and Destabilization. Also with us today, Adriana Benjumea, the director of Humanas Colombia, a Bogotá-based NGO that promotes human rights and, in particular, women’s rights. She’s a feminist lawyer specializing in international humanitarian law.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Mario, let’s begin with you. Your response to this historic deal that was reached in Havana, Cuba?
MARIO MURILLO: No question, it’s a major event. And most Colombians are welcoming it, and it’s a major historical development that everybody should be applauding. But we have to be clear that to call it a peace process, a peace agreement, is one thing, with the FARC and the government, but there’s a long way to go before we see a real development of a strong and lasting peace. This is the end of a military conflict between one armed group, the FARC, one of the largest, obviously, perhaps the largest military guerrilla organization in Latin America, with a government. But there’s plenty of evidence that this ongoing armed violence is going to continue, you know, until a lot of issues are resolved in the countryside.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Mario, this—we mentioned that this is the longest-running conflict possibly in the world, but it goes back even further, because, really, this particular guerrilla war started in '64, but that was preceded by 10 years of civil war, that's known as La Violencia, dating back to 1948, isn’t it?
MARIO MURILLO: Right, right. So we could talk about the roots of the internal conflict going back to the early part of the 20th century, but certainly the violence in the countryside and the FARC rebels emerging as a result of the lack of addressing the many issues in the countryside—rural development, security issues, infrastructure, human rights—all those issues that the FARC laid out in the 1960s, they go back, you know, decades earlier. And they’ll continue to be issues even as the FARC lay down their weapons in the—hopefully, in the next six months or so. So, absolutely, it’s a long historical conflict that’s hopefully beginning to make—some changes are going to begin to happen that will be very favorable to the long-term construction of peace in the country.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain how this works now, because it’s not done.
MARIO MURILLO: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: There has to be a plebiscite, right?
MARIO MURILLO: Now, this is where it gets complicated. Again, it’s a great—it’s great news for Colombia. I want to be clear on that. Right now, OK, so the agreement was publicly disclosed, or, finally, the full agreement was put out publicly last week by Santos and the rebels, so the peace agreement is now official. The ceasefire is in effect. We’ve seen basically a real decrease in violence in the countryside between the two bands, between the army and the FARC, over the last 18 months. So there is a level of tranquility there.
The FARC, in the week or so, next couple of weeks, will be meeting in their tent in what they’re calling their final congress. And so, the leadership of the FARC and the rank and file have to approve the peace deal. Most likely, they’re going to approve it. The FARC leadership has pretty much unilaterally—you know, collectively have said that they’re committed to peace. The issue of demobilized combatants is another issue, which we can get into later, which complicates some of the issues, because a lot of FARC rank and file on the ground, they’re not necessarily content with the agreement itself and what’s going to happen with them in terms of the future, the guarantees, etc.
Once the FARC—as the FARC are agreeing to the accord, the Congress has to take up a number of issues, particularly the issues of justice and transitional justice. And as those go through the—legislation has to be passed regarding who is going to be able to receive the so-called amnesty, right? So the—and that’s where a lot of the criticism is coming in about the peace accord: Is this an impunity for, you know, years of violence and so-called terrorism? But it looks like the combatants who were not involved in crimes against humanity, the combatants will get amnesty and become part of the political life. There’s still uncertainty as to what will happen to those who are implicated in massacres and in crimes against humanity on the ground—an issue that human rights groups are concerned about. And they raised similar issues vis-à-vis the paramilitary groups that demobilized back in 2006 and 2007. And then there’s the question of narcotrafficking. Is that issue considered a political crime, because narcotrafficking played such an essential role in funding the armed insurgency? Or is that going to be something else? Is that considered a crime that can’t be amnestied, right? So those issues have to be resolved in the Congress.
Meanwhile, on October 2nd—that’s what was announced last week—the country will go to vote in a so-called plebiscite referendum—yes or no. And it’s a very complicated, kind of simplistic question: Do you support peace? The Colombian commentators are saying, you know, "We’re the only country in the world that we have to ask whether or not we want to live in peace or not." And so that’s—so that’s supposed to happen on October 2nd now.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, I’d like to bring in Adriana Benjumea. You’ve been a longtime human rights attorney in Colombia. Your reaction to the accord and also to the issue of the punishment of those who did commit human rights crimes during the war?
ADRIANA BENJUMEA: [translated] In Colombia, us men and women are very happy about the peace agreement between the Colombian government and the FARC guerrillas. This is very important. But a very important progress for justice for women would be to see to it that sexual violence committed by the actors in the armed conflict not be subject to amnesty or pardoned. All of the armed actors who have participated in the armed conflict in Colombia have committed sexual crimes, and this should not be part of the amnesty or the pardon. This would represent major progress for the human rights of women, and this is why us women and why women are pleased with the peace agreement in Colombia. And we have great hopes that on October 2nd we will vote yes, and we’ll say yes in the plebiscite for peace.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But what is the process to judge those who did commit sexual crimes or other major human rights violations?
ADRIANA BENJUMEA: [translated] A special justice system has been established with various courts. There is an initial moment when those who have committed crimes—members of the military forces, government forces and the guerrillas—have to confess everything that they have done. If they confess, they have a community-based social punishment. They would not go to prison. There is a second moment, where if they confess late, not initially, because there’s evidence, then they will face a somewhat harsher, tougher penalty. They could be imprisoned for five to eight years. And those who do not confess will face trial, and the penalty can be up to 20 years in prison.
AMY GOODMAN: What are the major challenges you see for survivors of sexual violence in Colombia today?
ADRIANA BENJUMEA: [translated] There are very major challenges for everything that is written down to be actually carried out. For a crime such as sexual violence, it’s very difficult for women to testify about this and girls to testify about it, so there’s complications for it to be judged and for the Colombian government to have the ears to hear the victims and to make a commitment to see to it that sexual violence not be something that is tolerated in time of war or in peacetime.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And what has been the impact on the society in Colombia for a war that has lasted so long, the impact on the day-to-day life of ordinary Colombians?
ADRIANA BENJUMEA: [translated] In Colombia, there is great hope. In the poorest places, the poorest communities, that have seen the bullets fly and who have experienced the violence in the midst of the war, they hold out great hope. But there is also a lot of fear, because the right wing is moving forward very forcefully, and there’s also a risk of the Colombian people saying no to peace. That would be a very sad day for Colombia. But right now, with great joy, there are announcements in the press about the importance of voting yes for peace, and we certainly hope that our children can wake up one day with a country that has signed an end to the armed conflict and that is headed down the road to build peace.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Mario, I wanted to ask you about the right-wing militias that were so infamous throughout much of the civil war, many of them demobilized a few years back. What’s been the result of that in terms of the death squads and the counterviolence against guerrillas and the supporters of the guerrilla movement?
MARIO MURILLO: Yeah, it’s an interesting, convenient reality that the opposition to the yes vote, the people who are against this peace process, personified by Álvaro Uribe, the former president, current senator, conveniently kind of push to the side, because when they’re talking about negotiating and signing an accord with the FARC guerrillas, and describing them as terrorists who have carried out this long history of violence against a civilian population in the countryside and that you can’t negotiate with terrorists, these communist, terrorist narcotraffickers, that’s exactly what he did in 2006, 2007, as president, against a lot—notwithstanding a lot of opposition to that, precisely because of the links between the government forces and paramilitaries. It was sort of like negotiating with themselves to demobilize. In the process of demobilization, you know, so, the AUC, the Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, as an organization, no longer exists, but many of the fighters—
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: This was the main right-wing network.
MARIO MURILLO: That was the paramilitary kind of infrastructure that, in many ways, modeled the FARC infrastructures that they had in the countryside, creating fronts all around the country. And what happened was, a lot of those groups still maintain their arms and are continuing to carry out acts of violence, aggression, pressure in local communities. What we’re seeing today, for example—and this is something that’s not being discussed at all—is the attacks against human rights organizations, social organizations, the social movement, the peasant, Afro-Colombian, indigenous organizations, that are supporting the peace process—they want the guns to silence between the FARC and the government—but they have very serious reservations about how that’s going to happen, how it’s going to impact them. And a lot of these leaders, who are carrying out actions, who are denouncing the aggressions of the right in their territories, they’re being knocked off. There was a report that said in the first semester, the first half of 2016, 36 human rights social justice organizers around the country have already been killed, arbitrarily detained, some of them disappeared. And the report that—something that was recently published in Pueblos en Camino, which is a wonderful website that really focuses on the social movements in Colombia, up to 78 percent of those are either carried out by the remnants of the paramilitary groups or the security forces themselves.
AMY GOODMAN: What about the three environmental activists who were organizing against illegal mining, who were assassinated in Cauca, the southwestern province, just this week, one of them the founder of the campesino organization CIMA?
MARIO MURILLO: Well, therein lies the primary contradiction, right? Because, on the one hand, the peace accords have a very progressive, very optimistic and lofty, ambitious goals for the countryside to address the many, many decades, as we pointed out earlier, in terms of economic development, in terms of autonomy of communities, territorial rights, etc., infrastructure, but on the other hand, this government is completely cozy with multinational agribusiness, with mining, you know, extractive mining industry. And, in fact, these protests and the opposition to that, they’ve been focusing on how this government has been aggressively ceding mining contracts, mining licenses around territories that are supposedly protected constitutionally because they’re on indigenous or Afro-Colombian territories that are protected in the Constitution. So these activists and many others, who have been protesting that and trying to draw attention to that contradiction in this process, are getting bumped off by security forces and by dark forces that are remnants of the paramilitary groups.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: So, in essence, the left, the guerrillas here, are disarming, but the right paramilitary groups, the remnants of them are still armed and still terrorizing the population.
MARIO MURILLO: Yeah, but the—you know, I was in Cauca. You know, I was just recently there. I spent three or four weeks in Colombia just about a month ago; I got back about three weeks ago. And I wasn’t there doing work. I was doing—you know, it was a more personal trip, but I was visiting friends that I’ve worked with for a long time in the indigenous movement in southern Colombia. And they’re telling me how, yes, they—as was pointed out by Adriana, you know, they totally support the demobilization of the FARC, but they’re also pointing out that not all the FARC rebels—you know, we’re talking about young, peasant, very poor, many indigenous, who have no options. They have no, you know, possibilities. And for them to surrender their weapons is not necessarily in their interest. And so, they were talking to me about how some of those fighters are either putting on a different armband, the ELN, the other armed insurgency that’s still—and they’re not right now in a peace deal with the government. Some of them are going to continue and participate in what they call bandas criminales, these criminal bands and kind of a common criminality that still wield a lot of influence in some of these territories. So, there’s that concern: What happens to these FARC when they—to the FARC when they demobilize?
That does not mean that we shouldn’t strive for that. And, in fact, the indigenous movement is really pushing for that, as all the social justice movements. As Adriana pointed out, I think the primary opposition, very powerful, major influence in the Colombian media, is led by Álvaro Uribe, who is, in many ways, kind of a demigod for the right in Colombia. And they’re primarily the upper middle classes. You see a lot of videos on social movements of women in their Prada shirts and their pearls, speaking out of their high-rise apartments in Bogotá, talking about how we can’t surrender this country to communism, how we cannot—you know, we’re going to turn into the next Venezuela, the next Cuba, and that we should vote no for this referendum. But the people in the countryside, for the majority of the people in the countryside, and a large cross-section of the Colombian urban population supports the agreement with the FARC.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Adriana, I wanted to ask you, in terms of this—of the—as part of the accords, the rebels who disarm will each be paid by the government about $200 a month, I think, in terms of maintenance of themselves, and be allowed to form a political party. Do you expect that the FARC political party will become a major force in Colombian society, or will it just be sort of a marginal organization?
ADRIANA BENJUMEA: [translated] I expect that the political party formed by those who leave the guerrilla struggle will be a major party that we can all build democracy in Colombia together, that the debate is no longer going to be waged with weapons, but, rather, within the bounds of politics. And I think that many women and men who leave the war are going to have options in different political parties and in the elections, in local elections and elections in the larger cities. I think if it were just a marginal party, it would be very tough for democracy in Colombia. I think it’s important that all society understand that we build democracy without weapons, politically, with political parties.
AMY GOODMAN: And the role of women—the role of women in the peace talks?
ADRIANA BENJUMEA: [translated] That’s a very important question for women in Colombia. Initially—well, it’s been a four-year peace process. In the first two years, there were no women at the negotiating table. It was only in the third year that a subcommittee on gender issues was established. And last year, women’s organizations and expert women, many of us were invited to Havana to speak with the FARC and the national government to talk, for example, about issues of sexual violence and women and girls who have been victims of sexual violence. And we can say that the negotiating table in Havana, the two parties, did pay attention and incorporated our concerns into the peace agreement that’s been presented to the country. So, initially, women were not involved in the peace process. It didn’t take stock of the issues of women. It didn’t take stock of equality of women we have in the country. But we in the women’s movement and human rights movement have worked to see to it that our proposals, as women, be incorporated, particularly relating to land issues and justice issues.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we want to thank you both very much for being with us. And, Mario, before we go, our condolences, because it’s the first time we’re seeing you on the show, on the death of your wife, María Victoria Maldonado, a wonderful Colombian rights activist and artist, a loss to everyone.
MARIO MURILLO: I appreciate that. Thank you very much, Amy and Juan.
AMY GOODMAN: Mario Murillo, Colombian activist and Hofstra University professor, and Adriana Benjumea, a feminist lawyer and director of Humanas Colombia, a Bogotá-based NGO that promotes human rights, in particular, women’s rights.
This is Democracy Now! When we come back, a woman tells the story of bouncing a $1.07 check for a loaf of bread and how that ballooned into hundreds of dollars and her in jail. And she is not alone. Are we running debtors’ prisons in this country? Stay with us.... Read More →
Is an Arkansas Town Operating a "Hot Check" Court as an Illegal Debtors' Prison?
A woman in Sherwood, Arkansas, just spent 35 days in a county jail after she accidentally bounced a $29 check five years ago. Nikki Petree was sentenced to jail last month by a judge accused of running a debtors’ prison. She had already been arrested at least seven times over the bounced check and paid at least $600 in court fines. Her release comes as the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, the ACLU and an international law firm have filed a lawsuit to challenge the modern-day debtors’ prison in Sherwood. We speak with Kristen Clarke, president and executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, who says Sherwood jails people in violation of a long-standing law that forbids the incarceration of people for their failure to pay debts.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We turn now to Arkansas to look at the case of a mother who just spent 35 days in a county jail after she accidentally bounced a $29 check five years ago. Nikki Petree was sentenced to jail just last month by a judge accused of running a debtors’ prison. Petree had already been arrested at least seven times over the bounced check, and paid at least $600 in court fines—more than 20 times the original debt. Petree said, quote, "Every time I go to jail, they’d let me out immediately for $100. They’d turn around and add $600 or $700 more to my bond. I couldn’t afford to pay. They cornered me, and there was no way out from underneath it. I felt overwhelmed and hopeless," she said.
AMY GOODMAN: Nikki Petree’s release comes as the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, the ACLU and the international law firm Morrison & Foerster have filed a class-action civil rights lawsuit challenging the modern-day debtors’ prison in Sherwood, Arkansas. The lawsuit was filed in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas against the city of Sherwood, Arkansas; Pulaski County, Arkansas; and Judge Milas Hale. Petree is one of four named plaintiffs in the suit who allege their constitutional rights were violated by the Hot Check Division of the Sherwood District Court when they were jailed for their inability to pay court fines and fees. The lawsuit alleges that Sherwood, Pulaski County, engages in a policy and custom of jailing poor people who owe court fines, fees and costs stemming from misdemeanor bad check convictions. It also says they jail people in violation of a long-standing law that forbids the incarceration of people for their failure to pay debts.
For more, we’re going to Washington, D.C., to Kristen Clarke, president and executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, one of the groups that filed this lawsuit.
Welcome to Democracy Now! Can you explain exactly what happened to Nikki Petree? She ends up in jail for a $28-and-change check, that she didn’t realize had bounced because her last paycheck hadn’t put in, and she ends up in jail five years later?
KRISTEN CLARKE: Yeah, Nikki Petree is not alone. This is a debtors’ court system that’s been in place in Sherwood that preys on the backs of poor people. Nikki Petree is one woman who exemplifies what happens if you’re poor in Sherwood. She wrote a check that was returned for insufficient funds about five years ago. That check amounted to about $28. And since that time, she’s spent more than 25 days in jail and has paid more than $600 in fines to the local court system. That is money that she did not have. She lives below the poverty line. She remains indebted by more than $2,500 to the local court system. And she was jailed at the time that we filed this suit last week. And there are so many people like her in Sherwood. We filed this lawsuit to bring an end to a court system that we believe preys on the backs of poor people.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Kristen Clarke, in that lawsuit, you raise the issue of why this is happening. You say that local courts and municipalities throughout Arkansas have used the threat and the reality of incarceration to trap their poorest citizens in a never-ending spiral of repetitive court proceedings and ever-increasing debt. But you say also that faced with opposition to increased taxes, municipalities have turned to creating a system of debtors’ prisons to fuel the demand for increased public revenue. How extensive is this in Arkansas that municipalities are using this as a new revenue source?
KRISTEN CLARKE: It’s not only the case in Arkansas, but all over the country we’re seeing the resurgence of debtors’ prisons. In Sherwood, this is a court that’s generated more than $12 million over the course of five years by imposing fines and fees over and over again on poor people who wrote checks to local merchants that were returned for insufficient funds. In Ferguson, Missouri, we saw a local court system that was built on this concept of entangling people in the court system for transit, for traffic offenses. That court generated $20 million off the backs of poor people in Ferguson. But we know that these are not isolated practices.
What’s happened is that in 1983 the Supreme Court made clear that this is unconstitutional, that you can’t lock people up merely because they are poor. But what we’ve seen is the resurgence of debtors’ prison, because there hasn’t been enough enforcement to put a check on court systems like the one in place in Sherwood. So we filed this lawsuit to bring an end to an era that’s been marked by a court system in which one judge presides, Judge Butch Hale, where he has disregarded the due process rights of poor people at every turn.
What happens in Sherwood is that people get on line outside his courtroom. They are forced to sign a waiver of their right to counsel. Nobody is allowed in that courtroom but the defendants. If you come with a family member, an advocate or friend, you’re not allowed in. There are no tapes or recordings of the proceedings, no transcripts of the proceedings. People appear without counsel by their side. No one explains their rights to them. And every time they stand up before Judge Butch Hale, he imposes fine, fee after fine and fee, and court costs on them, subjecting these people to a spiraling cycle of debt.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, it is an astounding story about Nikki Petree. Didn’t she end up owing something like $2,600 on this $28-and-change check?
KRISTEN CLARKE: That’s exactly right. She remains indebted by more than $2,500, $2,600. She spent more than 25 days in jail. She’s already come out of pocket more than $600. And that’s money that she doesn’t have, because she, like everybody who appears before this court, are poor people. This is a court that preys on the most vulnerable people in Sherwood. And they make a profit off of this.
... Read More →
Judge Denies Hepatitis C Cure for Mumia Abu-Jamal, But Finds Lack of Care in Prison Unconstitutional
A federal judge has denied a request from the former Black Panther and journalist Mumia Abu-Jamal for life-saving medication that could cure his hepatitis C. Last year, Mumia sued to receive an antiviral treatment for hepatitis C after he was placed in critical condition, and officials said he was was not sick enough to be eligible. The medication has about a 95 percent cure rate. But it costs the state about $55,000 for a 12-week course of the drug. Even as the judge denied Mumia’s motion, he also found that Pennsylvania’s hepatitis C protocol for inmates fails to meet constitutional standards and could prolong suffering. We hear reaction from Mumia Abu-Jamal and speak with his lawyer, Bob Boyle, and correspondent Renée Feltz, who has covered these developments.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We end today’s show with news that a federal judge has denied a request from former Black Panther and journalist Mumia Abu-Jamal for a life-saving medication that could cure his hepatitis C. Mumia has been in prison in Pennsylvania since he was convicted of killing a police officer in 1981. He always maintained his innocence, and Amnesty International said he didn’t receive a fair trial. His death sentence was overturned in 2011 on constitutional grounds, and he is now serving life without parole. Last year, Mumia sued to receive an antiviral treatment for hepatitis C, after he was placed in critical condition and officials said he was not sick enough to be eligible. The medication has about a 95 percent cure rate. But it costs the state about $55,000 for a 12-week course of the drug.
AMY GOODMAN: On Wednesday, U.S. District Court Judge Robert Mariani denied a motion for preliminary injunction that would have let him order the treatment without going to trial. The denial was based on a technicality that the lawsuit should have named the state’s hepatitis C committee for prisoner treatment instead of targeting the warden and the prison system’s medical chief. Even as the judge denied Mumia Abu-Jamal’s motion, he also found that Pennsylvania’s hepatitis C protocol for prisoners fails to meet constitutional standards and could prolong suffering. Pennsylvania treats just about five of more than 6,000 prisoners who are infected with hepatitis C. This mirrors untreated epidemics in prisons around the country.
Well, PrisonRadio.org spoke to Mumia Abu-Jamal after the judge’s ruling. This is what Mumia said.
MUMIA ABU-JAMAL: It’s a good beginning that a federal judge recognizes that what the commonwealth is doing, and has been doing for years, is not only unjust, but not right, unconstitutional, a violation of fundamental fairness and the human right to life. So, it’s a beginning. It’s a good beginning. And we want a good ending.
AMY GOODMAN: For more, we’re joined by Bob Boyle, one of Mumia Abu-Jamal’s attorneys in the case, and by Democracy Now! correspondent Renée Feltz, who also writes for The Guardian, where she covered these developments.
Bob, explain, because the judge clearly was angered by what’s happening to the prisoners, but ruled on this technicality.
BOB BOYLE: Yeah, the judge ruled that the Pennsylvania protocol for treating hepatitis C is unconstitutional. Essentially, under their policy, an inmate, a human being, has to be on the verge of death. Your blood vessels have to be in danger of bursting inside your chest, before you’re given this life-saving medication. And the judge found that this is blatantly unconstitutional. He only ruled against us on the ground that we did not name this so-called hepatitis C committee, this secret group of people who meet in secret and decide whether someone gets this drug. We did sue the warden, the head of the Pennsylvania Health Department, and we did not even know of the existence of this committee at the time we filed the lawsuit. So, it’s a technicality that we are going to challenge and fight, until Mumia gets these—this life-saving medication.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And 5,000 prisoners in Pennsylvania have hepatitis C, but only five are receiving treatment?
BOB BOYLE: It’s probably closer to 6,000. And I think their latest estimate, they’ve upped it all the way to 30, out of 6,000, who are receiving this treatment. And it’s because this drug costs not just $55,000, $84,000—$1,000 per pill. So, the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections is acting in an unconstitutional manner in this regard, but also it is unconscionable that drug companies—and it’s only because we have the horrible health system that we have—can charge this amount of money, which will save—denial of which will—could cause death.
AMY GOODMAN: But hepatitis C, if left untreated, leads to cirrhosis of the liver, which costs even more to treat.
BOB BOYLE: And it’s also—absolutely, and causes death and irreversible damage. And also, remember, hepatitis C is a communicable disease. So, people come out of prison, by either sharing needles or sexual contact, can pass the virus to other people, who then have hepatitis C and have to be treated. So, it is an extremely shortsighted—and that’s really a euphemism. It’s really criminal, what’s going on.
AMY GOODMAN: Renée Feltz, talk—put this in a national context.
RENÉE FELTZ: Well, it’s not just Pennsylvania that we’re talking about. Almost every state across the country has thousands of inmates in their prisons who have hepatitis C. Many of them don’t actually know that they have it, because the prisons don’t provide testing. There have been class-action lawsuits not only in Pennsylvania; in addition to what Mumia and his attorneys have filed, there’s also class-action lawsuits in Tennessee, where there is another limited number of prisoners who are able to get the treatment, also in Massachusetts and also in Minnesota.
Now, New York, here, has done a little bit better. They’ve increased their funding in the recent years by about 350 percent to provide these life-saving hepatitis C drugs to prisoners, including, interestingly, to Robert Seth Hayes, who is a former Black Panther and considered a political prisoner. He was able to be cured of hep C when he got this treatment here in New York. But he has still many, many other problems with his health. He is elderly, and he’s still pushing to be granted parole. He’s been denied 10 times.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But, Renée, what about this issue of the drug companies? Because, obviously, for prisons, at this cost, the—and with so many inmates suffering from hepatitis C, this is a budget buster for a lot of prison systems.
RENÉE FELTZ: That’s right. Now, the company, Gilead, makes this drug, and it was investigated by the Senate in 2014. And what they found, by looking at the company’s own documents, is that the cost was not determined by development or the cost of acquiring the drug. It was simply to make money. And they weren’t concerned about the access, that it would—the challenges it would present to access.
BOB BOYLE: I would add, in Egypt, for example, which isn’t subject to U.S. patent laws, it costs about $100 a pill; $10 in India. So it’s only in this country where it costs so much.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going to leave it there, but, of course, we’ll continue to follow this story. Bob Boyle, attorney for Mumia Abu-Jamal, and Renée Feltz, Democracy Now! correspondent.
And a correction to an earlier headline: The hacker sentenced to 52 months in prison after being extradited from Romania goes by the name "Guccifer" online, not "Guccifer 2.0." Guccifer says he hacked Hillary Clinton’s private server at her home in Chappaqua, New York. He pleaded guilty in May to charges including unauthorized access to a protected computer and aggravated identity theft.
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The Criminalization of Poverty: Woman Describes Fines & Arrests After $1.07 Check Bounces
We continue our look at what the ACLU calls an illegal debtors’ prison in Arkansas by speaking with a former resident who wrote a check for $1.07 for a loaf of bread. She describes how after her check bounced, her debt ballooned with fees and fines to nearly $400, and police officers twice came to her job to arrest her. Since then, she has been caught up in Sherwood’s Hot Checks Department. We are also joined by lawyer Kristen Clarke, president and executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, who says the woman’s experience is common.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re also joined by Janice, who is a native of Little Rock, Arkansas, who’s been caught up in Sherwood’s Hot Checks Department for decades. One check she wrote for $1.07 for a loaf of bread bounced. The debt ballooned after fees and fines to nearly $400. She currently has a warrant in Sherwood’s Hot Checks Department and wishes to remain anonymous for fear of arrest.
So, Janice, you’re in profile; you don’t want to be seen. But explain what happened to you.
JANICE: On several occasions, I have been arrested by Sherwood Police Department for bounced checks, insufficient funds checks. I’ve even been arrested on my job—two different jobs, as a matter of fact, one—with two different hospitals. My checks has totaled, I would say, less than $1,000 worth of checks. And they’re little, small checks. I was a bad manager. I didn’t keep a good register, so, therefore, I had bounced checks. Some were $20. Hundred dollar may have been the highest number of checks that I wrote. But I have had accumulated fees up to thousands of dollars in fees and costs, on roughly less than $1,000 worth of checks.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And when you go into the—before the judge on these cases, what’s the process? What happens there?
JANICE: He just bring you before him, and, like they say, you sign a waiver. You go up before the judge, and he assesses your fees and court costs, and give you a monthly payment amount, until you have to pay this monthly payment by such, such date. You have a 10-day grace period. If it’s not paid, then there’s another failure-to-pay warrant issued and additional costs and fines assessed to the amount you already have.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, part of your struggle is you have MS—is that right, Janice? And you’re trying to deal with medical costs, as well?
JANICE: Correct.
AMY GOODMAN: And is this Judge Hale that you’re going before, who Kristen Clarke just described?
JANICE: Yes, it is.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you allowed to bring in a friend, a family member, a lawyer at your side?
JANICE: Now, if you do retain an attorney, an attorney can be there, but family members and friends are not allowed in.
AMY GOODMAN: So what is your situation right now?
JANICE: Right now, I have not been there since somewhere around 2008. And I have an active warrant, because I could not afford to pay the monthly payment that he had assessed of $200, because I feel as if I have paid, you know, restitution on the checks that I’ve previously wrote, but these are all accumulated fines and court costs that has been assessed.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And they’ve come on several occasions to arrest you on your job? I find this hard—this is a civil issue. Why they would be coming to arrest you on your job?
JANICE: Because that’s what they do. Even though they know your address, your home address, they will come out to your job, opposed to your home. And this has caused me to lose two jobs because of that.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Kristen Clarke, what about that, this issue of—I mean, normally, if somebody writes a check that they don’t have funds for, the bank will send them and issue, you know, a charge, but having law enforcement come in and arrest you for this, especially on your job, is this—is this illegal?
KRISTEN CLARKE: This abusive debt collection practice is part of the scheme. The clients that we represent in this case have had the cops show up at their doorstep and insist that they pay money now, or they are threatened with arrest. I am heartbroken to hear the story of the woman who just spoke. But again, we know that these are not isolated cases. This is a systemic pattern that exists across Sherwood and across Pulaski County. This is a court that has made big business out of preying on the backs of poor people. And they have made the focus on the most marginalized people in this community the focus of this court. People who have written small checks that are returned for insufficient funds, that is the focus of this court. And I can’t tell you how many people we’ve talked to who have stories like the woman who just spoke. We represent a cancer patient in this case. You know, he was hospitalized and receiving chemotherapy. And two—you know, a few checks bounced for very small amounts, and this man has been jailed and remains indebted in thousands of dollars to a court. Every time someone appears before Judge Hale, he imposes more court costs, more fines, more fees. And there is no way out for the people who are entrapped in this system.
AMY GOODMAN: So where does the lawsuit go from here, Kristen?
KRISTEN CLARKE: Well, we filed a federal class-action lawsuit. The woman who just spoke may indeed be somebody who is a member of this class. We will fight. We believe that Sherwood is a poster child, if you will. This is a classic example of a debtors’ prison. And we believe we’ll be successful at the end of the day in securing relief for the poor people of Sherwood. We believe that when somebody faces criminal charges, that they should have a lawyer by their side. They should have a judge who warns them about their rights and who counsels them about their rights and respects their due process rights. We will—we will fight on.
And then we’re going to look elsewhere around the country, because we know that this is a nationwide problem that we face. All around the country, we’ve seen the resurgence of debtors’ prisons. We’ve seen the criminalization of poverty. So, we are going to fight until we end this practice and bring our courts in line with that 1983 ruling from the Supreme Court that says you cannot lock poor people up merely because of their inability to pay a fine or fee.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you, Kristen Clarke, with the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law. And, Janice, thank you for being with us—not her real name. She is in shadow, but that’s because of what she faces as a poor person who is a victim of Sherwood’s Hot Checks Department in Arkansas.
This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. When we come back, Mumia Abu-Jamal loses a case to get hep C treatment in prison. Stay with us.
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According to The Guardian, 723 people across the United States have been killed by police so far this year.
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