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In a year that saw the brutal televised beheading of Western journalists and aid workers by the Islamic State, the United States is facing calls to change a hostage policy that may have undermined chances to save their lives. Journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff, as well as aid worker Peter Kassig, were all beheaded after being kidnapped by ISIS in Syria. Luke Somers, a photojournalist, was killed in Yemen this month during a failed U.S. rescue mission. Family members of the hostages have criticized U.S. government policy of refusing to engage with their captors, including the payment of ransom. Meanwhile, at least 15 hostages also kidnapped by ISIS in Syria have walked free. That’s because their governments — all but one European — have negotiated and paid millions of dollars to win their release. But not only does the United States refuse to negotiate or pay ransoms to captors, it has threatened the hostages’ families with prosecution if they try to do so on their own. We host a roundtable discussion with three guests: Philip Balboni, president and CEO of GlobalPost, where Foley was a freelance reporter when he was taken hostage in 2012; Gary Noesner, former chief of the FBI’s Crisis Negotiation Unit; and Sarah Shourd, who was was held prisoner by Iran for 410 days before ultimately being released in a deal brokered by Oman.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AARON MATÉ: After a year that saw the brutal televised beheadings of Western captives by ISIS, we spend the hour on whether U.S. hostage policy has cost American lives. After losing at least four hostages in 2014, the U.S. faces calls to change an approach that may have prevented their release. Journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff, as well as aid worker Peter Kassig, were all beheaded after being kidnapped by ISIS in Syria. A fourth American, a female aid worker, is said to remain in ISIS captivity.
Luke Somers, a photojournalist, was killed in Yemen this month during a failed U.S. rescue mission. The captors shot Somers and another hostage, South African teacher Pierre Korkie, before fleeing. The charity Gift of the Givers says it had reached a ransom deal with the captors that was set to free Korkie just hours later. The U.S. says it was not aware Korkie was about to released when it launched the operation.
AMY GOODMAN: Family members of the hostages have criticized U.S. government policy for refusing to engage with their captors, including the payment of ransom. Under this approach, dangerous rescue missions like the one in Yemen appear to be the only option. While at least four Americans were killed and one remains in captivity, 15 hostages also kidnapped by ISIS in Syria have walked free. That’s because their governments—all but one European—have negotiated and paid millions of dollars to win their release.
But not only does the U.S. refuse to negotiate or pay ransom to captors, it’s thwarted the efforts of family members who try to do so on their own. The families of all four Americans kidnapped by ISIS in Syria were told they could face prosecution if they paid money to free their loved ones. Diane Foley, the mother of slain journalist James Foley, spoke to ABC News earlier this year.
DIANE FOLEY: We had to beg. We had to—
JOHN FOLEY: The higher we went, the more difficult the [inaudible].
DIANE FOLEY: Right. And we were an annoyance, it felt, at some levels, that, you know, they really didn’t have time for us. We were told very clearly, three times, that it was illegal for us to try to ransom our son out and that we had possibility of being prosecuted. I was surprised that there was so little compassion.
AARON MATÉ: That’s Diane Foley, the mother of James Foley.
Well, in addition to blocking ransom payments, the U.S. has missed other potential opportunities to win the hostages’ release. According to The New York Times, at least seven people, who either witnessed the Americans’ abduction or imprisonment in Syria, say they tried to make contact with U.S. officials to pass on useful information, including the location of the prison where they were held. But these witnesses say their efforts largely fell on deaf ears. One fighter says U.S. officials refused to negotiate with a sheikh who was authorized to speak on the Islamic State’s behalf, just months before Foley was beheaded. The U.S. also reportedly denied the overture of an ISIS general who offered to free Foley in exchange for cash and asylum in the U.S.
AMY GOODMAN: After criticism from the Foleys and other families, the Obama administration announced a review of its hostage policy last month. But the review will not cover the ban on ransom payments. Administration officials say not paying ransoms ultimately protects more Americans by making them less valuable targets.
Today we’ll hear from a New York attorney, Stanley Cohen. He was directly involved in secret talks to win the freedom of U.S. aid worker Peter Kassig, who was held by ISIS in Syria. When U.S. ally Jordan arrested the sheikh he was negotiating with, the talks collapsed, and Kassig was beheaded soon after.
But first we’re joined by three other guests. Philip Balboni, president and CEO of the online international news outlet GlobalPost, for which James Foley was a freelance reporter at the time he was taken hostage in November of 2012—Foley also was freelancing for the GlobalPost when he was held for 44 days by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya in 2011. During the nearly two years Foley was held hostage in Syria before he was beheaded, Balboni worked with Foley’s family to secure his release.
Gary Noesner also joins us. He’s the former chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit and has written the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator.
And Sarah Shourd joins us. She was held prisoner by Iran for 410 days and released through negotiations in part with a third country, Oman, which facilitated the payment of a half a million dollars each for Sarah Shourd and her two friends, Americans Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer. She is currently a contributing editor at Solitary Watch and will be publishing an anthology, as well producing a play, based on the nearly 75 oral and written testimonies she’s gathered from people who have lived through or are currently in solitary in the United States. And she’s a regular contributor to The Daily Beast.
We’re going to begin right now with Philip Balboni, president and CEO of GlobalPost. Can you talk about the efforts you made working with the Foley family to have James released?
PHILIP BALBONI: Sure. Well, when we learned Jim was kidnapped, it was two days after his abduction, just after Thanksgiving 2012. I immediately hired an international security firm that I had actually worked with when Jim was a captive, more briefly, as you mentioned, in Libya in 2011. And that began a 20-month effort to, first, find and then to free Jim. We had investigators on the ground on the Turkish-Syria border within a matter of days. Many of them stayed for months, running down leads, trying to determine who had taken Jim and how we might be able to be in contact with them and start negotiating for his release. So it was an incredibly intensive effort that went on, literally, every single day for those 20 months. And I personally supervised that effort. And, of course, we worked closely with John and Diane Foley, Jim’s parents, and with his brother Michael and others. It was a complicated, frustrating effort, you know, with such a tragic ending. I have so many feelings and thoughts about this that they couldn’t be easily encompassed in this program.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the issue of ransom? I mean, these very damning words of Diane Foley, which she repeated on several networks, saying that she was threatened with prosecution—
PHILIP BALBONI: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: —if she were to raise money.
PHILIP BALBONI: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Talk about what the U.S. said to her, as well is to you, Philip Balboni.
PHILIP BALBONI: Sure. Well, the primary threat, I guess, if we could call it that, came in a conference call with other family members, that followed a meeting we had in Washington at which all the hostage families got together for the very first time. It’s been revealed it was a member of the National Security Council. I would say that we had many contacts with the government—State Department, NSC. Diane was received at the White House at least twice. We had frequent contact with the FBI, both the family directly and our own investigators. There were contradictory signals. And it’s now been reported that the Bureau, Federal Bureau of Investigation, always made it clear to us that they would help and that there would be no prosecution. So there was—there was dissonance on that point, which I think slowed down the investigation.
I think the U.S. policy should be changed. I’m glad the Obama administration has begun that review, but I don’t it goes far enough. As I said in that story by Rukmini Callimachi of The New York Times, the policy really isn’t nuanced. And I don’t think we need to change the public posture of never paying a ransom. That has merit in some cases. But each case needs to be looked at on its merits. And I think in Jim’s case, and also in Steven’s and Peter’s, the families did want to pay a ransom. It was very difficult to raise that much money and to do the coordination, even though we were standing behind them with professional experts in kidnap and ransom. You know, I feel that we might have succeeded if the policy had been different. And, you know, that will be a lifelong regret for me.
AARON MATÉ: Philip, you were in touch with the captors. What did they want? Some figures in the media said they wanted tens of millions of dollars. Is that true?
PHILIP BALBONI: Well, there were six emails from the kidnappers. They stopped in late December of 2013 and never resumed until the fateful email we received on August 12th that said that Jim would be executed because of the U.S. bombing in Iraq. In the early emails from the kidnappers, they wanted 100 million euros or the release of Muslim prisoners. This was just an opening gambit. And as we now know, they did effectuate 15 ransoms for sums that have varied from, you know, two to three million euros and maybe slightly more than that. So, unfortunately in Jim’s case—
AMY GOODMAN: We seem to have lost Philip Balboni, again, president and CEO of GlobalPost. We’re going to go to break, and when we come back, we’ll continue this unique roundtable. Philip Balboni, again, heading up GlobalPost, where James Foley was a freelance reporter when he was taken hostage in 2012, worked with Jim’s parents very closely in trying to gain his release. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Aaron Maté. We are spending the hour looking at the U.S. policy around hostages, how to have them freed. Among those with us, Philip Balboni, head of GlobalPost, where James Foley worked. He would be beheaded last year by ISIS—this year. We’re also joined by, as well, Gary Noesner. He is the former chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit, also author of Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. As you listen to Philip Balboni describe the efforts with Jim Foley’s family to try to have Jim released, can you talk about what the U.S. policy has been?
GARY NOESNER: Well, it would be a little bit frustrating. I wasn’t able to hear all of Mr. Balboni because of some technical issues here. But, you know, the U.S. policy has always been one of making no substantive concessions to terrorists, and that’s a good policy. It can be supported on a lot of different ways. However, that has, in the last decade or so, morphed into meaning no negotiations, which it never was in the past. When I ran the FBI unit in the '90s and up until 2003, when I retired, we were able to be far more engaged and supportive of families, even when they chose to pay a ransom. The prohibition, in my view, should really be directed against the government paying money. We should not attempt to prohibit families from doing so, because that's often the only means through which you can effect the safe and timely release of a victim.
AARON MATÉ: Gary, what accounts for this change in policy? You say that before 9/11 things were different.
GARY NOESNER: Yeah, and actually beyond that a ways, but I think beginning with the events of 9/11, I think, clearly, the whole landscape of counterterrorism changed. Far more agencies, extraordinarily greater amounts of budgetary dollars, many more players came into the equation. Prior to then, the FBI, with some interface with State Department, a few other agencies, would pretty much manage these kidnappings. And now there’s literally a host of thousands of people in the government involved.
And sadly, politicians and government officials want to be seen as unyielding and uncompromising in the face of terrorism, so they’ve overly interpreted this no-concessions policy to become a no-negotiations policy. In the reality, there’s a great deal of space between capitulating to demands and a refusal to negotiate. And that’s the problem, I think, that we’re seeing now, that that concern of being perceived as acquiescent has prevented them from pursuing things that we used to be able to pursue in the past that often led to successful outcomes.
AARON MATÉ: And, Philip Balboni, before the break and before we lost you on the satellite—I think we have you back now—
PHILIP BALBONI: Yes.
AARON MATÉ: —you were talking about your contacts with the captors.
PHILIP BALBONI: Yes. So, that series of emails that came between late November and late December laid out, initially, the simple fact that they had Jim, and then they gave us the opportunity to get proof of life. We were able to do that successfully, and that was, you know, a true milestone, that we knew that Jim was alive and we knew who had him. But the negotiation around a definitive amount that they would accept for Jim was never consummated. It never moved off that 100 million euros.
But you have to remember that the Islamic State came under attack from other jihadist groups right around that period of time and were driven out of Aleppo, where they had previously headquartered, and they were forced into eastern Syria, ended up in Raqqa, which is their current headquarters. They began recommunicating, but they concentrated on the European hostages. And they knew about the United States policy and the British policy, and they—we knew from feedback from intelligence we gathered that they intended to leave the Americans and the British to the end. But they never resumed the negotiations.
And I agree with my colleague from the FBI that their private negotiations, family decisions—and this has happened in the past—should be allowed to proceed, and the Bureau has helped families in the past do that. And, unfortunately, that did not get to play out in Jim Foley’s case.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring Sarah Shourd into this discussion. Sarah, you’ve written about this for The Daily Beast. You co-wrote A Sliver of Light: Three Americans Imprisoned in Iran. You were imprisoned in Iran for 410 days. Can you first talk about your own experience and how ultimately you were freed? And respond to what the U.S. policy has been for hostages in other countries and held by other groups.
SARAH SHOURD: Yeah, of course. It’s great to be here, Amy. Well, a lot of the recent stories coming out about the mismanagement of these hostage cases ring very true to me in my own experience. In our own experience, we were often caught between the State Department and the White House. After I was freed after 410 days, I was in the center of negotiations for my now husband, Shane Bauer, and my friend, Josh Fattal, and there were dozens of high-level meetings in the State Department and White House. And what it felt like to us after a while was infighting, finger pointing and just complete mismanagement of our case.
AMY GOODMAN: And when you saw what happened with Peter Kassig, with Jim Foley, talk about your response and what you feel needs to happen now.
SARAH SHOURD: Well, obviously, this is a—you know, it’s a very emotional topic. And it’s a huge moment, because finally these stories are coming out of missed opportunities. When we were in the center of this, we had no one to turn to, no one to guide us. And we were absolutely, you know, flabbergasted by how things just seemed to get lost in the shuffle and never moved forward, and it was this eternity of waiting and misinformation.
I mean, I came on your show several times, and—during the time that we were fighting for Shane and Josh’s freedom, and I was—I felt strangled. I felt like I couldn’t talk about my frustrations with my own government, because, in pretty direct terms, the State Department told us if we criticized our government’s inaction, the Iranian government could take that out on Shane and Josh. So there were threats. There was mismanagement.
And what I’m seeing now is that consistently our government does negotiate. First of all, the way that this whole policy is addressed is dishonest from the get-go. There are negotiations that go on, but I think that it’s very unequal and inconsistent who actually gets negotiated for, what they’re willing to do for who. And—
AARON MATÉ: Could you say that—
SARAH SHOURD: I’m sorry. Are you still there?
AARON MATÉ: Yeah. Well, Sarah, in your case, could one say that your case was different because you were held by a foreign government as opposed to a militant group like ISIS?
SARAH SHOURD: Of course. Of course there are differences. But we got the same—the same problem was that our government said, "We don’t talk to terrorists. We can’t talk directly." So, a third party was used in our case. The Omani government eventually ended up paying a thinly veiled ransom—half a million dollars for each of us. And I think that’s an extremely important point, because our government says that they have this no-concession policy and that ransom is never paid, but there was tacit approval for the Omani government to pay our ransom. I know that for a fact, because I worked very closely with them. What difference does it make if money is, you know, getting into the hands of rogue governments or terrorist groups through a third party or directly? The money is still getting into those hands.
AMY GOODMAN: Gary Noesner, when you look at Sarah Shourd’s case, in the case of the Omani government paying the half a million dollars for each of the three of them—I think at the time it was like called "bail"—why were—why did the U.S. deal with this differently?
GARY NOESNER: Well, I wasn’t involved, and I don’t know the particulars of that. But, you know, I think we have to be careful, too, that resolving these cases, in my view, is not best served simply by throwing a big pot of money at the kidnappers. That certainly will encourage more. However, outright refusal to negotiate does not protect Americans from being victimized and does little to help effect their safe and timely release. These are very complex and challenging cases, and we have to have a whole range of tools and options available to deal with them. And what sadly has happened, in my opinion, is there’s been an overly restrictive interpretation of what is appropriate for the government to do in support of families and businesses. And that’s the issue that I hope this review will take a hard look at.
AARON MATÉ: Well, Gary, what about the issue of lost opportunities? This New York Times piece on Sunday called "The Cost of the U.S. Ban on Paying for Hostages" has a tidbit about Theo Padnos, a U.S. captive in Syria, and he says that his iPhone was taken by his captors. Now, he assumed it was—that they removed the SIM card, it was never used. But he found out after he was released that his captors used his iPhone, but U.S. officials never looked for it using the, you know, Find My iPhone option.
GARY NOESNER: Well, again, I can’t speak to that. I have no knowledge of what happened in the specifics of that case. But I would say this. I think when we say "negotiation," that is a broad range of activities. And FBI personnel, negotiators will, when deployed in assisting a family or trying to secure the safe release of a hostage victim, will look at a whole range of information available to us to gather information about the perpetrators and how we might open contact with them. So, this certainly would have been something that I would have assumed was done. If it was not, I have no explanation for that.
AMY GOODMAN: And so, Sarah Shourd, as you watched these—as you watched journalist after aid worker beheaded by ISIS, what did you feel, having been freed yourself, of course, facing death, but having been freed yourself, as Shane and Josh were, were the steps that needed to be taken?
SARAH SHOURD: Well, first of all, I think that we should review our policy on the level of mismanagement and incompetence, but also I think it’s worth taking a second look at ransom and our no-concession policy, as well, which I also think is dishonest. I mean, it’s clear that our government is willing to do prisoner swaps for servicemen and women—I mean, Bob Bergdahl, the recent trade with Cuba. And there’s also cases such as the case of Raymond Davis in Pakistan, who was a Blackwater CIA operative that murdered two people, and he was facing charges in Pakistan, and then a blood money was paid to the family of the murdered, and he was released just a week after he was arrested. There were reports that that money was paid by the Pakistani government and that the U.S. government was going to pay it back. Of course, a lot of these reports can’t be confirmed, but the point that I’m trying to make is, when the U.S. wants to get its people out, they get their people out.
But what we see consistently is that the work of journalists and humanitarian workers is not safeguarded by our government, that our government doesn’t have their backs. And when the issue of ransom is raised, the argument is often "we need to see the greater good, we need to prevent more cases like this from happening." I completely agree with that argument. We do need to look at the greater good, and we need to look at each case separately.
And the Islamic State is not al-Qaeda. We’re not looking at the same kind of organization here. The Islamic State, for one, has its own revenue. From their so-called government and business activities, they make a million dollars a day. So a $6 million ransom, which is what they’re asking, I believe, for the last American hostage, this young 26-year-old humanitarian worker, a $6 million ransom for the Islamic State is—it’s not going to make or break the organization. It’s a good day for them, but they have their own revenue. And you can argue that the propaganda that’s come out of these horrific beheadings, the loss of life, has been able to gain them recruits that are perhaps more valuable and have done more damage in escalating violence than any ransom ever could have done.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Philip Balboni, what do you want to see happen?
PHILIP BALBONI: Well, I’d like to remind your viewers and listeners that there are three hostages still being held by the Islamic State as we’re talking this morning. You’ve referenced the young American woman. Jim’s traveling companion, the British journalist John Cantlie, is still being held. And there is a third woman whose identity and nationality is being protected. They are facing the same horrible fate as Jim and Steven and Peter and the others. And I remain in touch with two of those three families. And the same, I would say, relatively feckless procedures are playing out, and there is not a definitive plan in place to secure their release. So—
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to continue this discussion after break. Our guests are Philip Balboni, president and CEO of GlobalPost—James Foley worked for the GlobalPost when he was taken hostage in 2012; Gary Noesner, former chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit; Sarah Shourd, one of three Americans imprisoned in Iran—ultimately Oman helped to negotiate their release, paying half a million dollars for each of them.
When we come back, we’ll be joined by New York attorney Stanley Cohen, who attempted to negotiate the release of an American, Peter Kassig, before he was beheaded. It looked like things were moving along, until the sheikh who was working as the intermediary was arrested by the U.S. ally, Jordan. And we’ll hear that story in a moment. Stay with us.
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As we explore how the United States fails to win the release of its hostages overseas, we are joined by Stanley Cohen, a lawyer directly involved in secret talks to win the freedom of U.S. aid worker Peter Kassig. Cohen argues that the U.S. government missed a chance to prevent Kassig’s beheading last month by the Islamic State in Syria. A controversial attorney whose past clients include Hamas, Hezbollah and the son-in-law of Osama bin Laden, Cohen tapped his extensive contacts in a failed effort to win Kassig’s freedom. With the FBI’s blessing, Cohen flew to the Middle East where he spearheaded talks between figures aligned with al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. But the plan fell apart when Jordan arrested a leading cleric who played a key role in the talks and the United States refused to intervene. Kassig was killed shortly after. "The United States made a decision — I don’t know if it was the White House, I don’t know if it was the State Department — they made a decision to throw Mr. Kassig under the bus, because, for whatever reason, the Jordanian government did not want this to happen," Cohen says.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Aaron Maté.
AARON MATÉ: As we continue our look at how the U.S. has failed to win the release of hostages captured by ISIS and other militants, we turn now to the case of Peter Kassig. A former U.S. soldier turned aid worker in Syria, Kassig was captured by ISIS just over a year ago. Last month, he was executed in the latest ISIS beheading of a Western hostage. Kassig, who was 26, converted to Islam in captivity and was also known as Abdul-Rahman. After his death, his parents, Paula and Ed Kassig, remembered their son.
PAULA KASSIG: Our hearts are battered, but they will mend. The world is broken, but it will be healed in the end, and good will prevail as the one god of many names will prevail.
ED KASSIG: Please pray for Abdul-Rahman, or Pete, if that’s how you know him, at sunset this evening. Pray also for all people in Syria, in Iraq and around the world.
AARON MATÉ: Paula and Ed Kassig, the parents of Peter Kassig. Well, just over a month after his death, a New York lawyer has come forward to reveal he brokered secret talks aimed at winning Kassig’s release and that he believes the U.S. government missed a chance to prevent Kassig’s death.
AMY GOODMAN: In a minute, we’ll speak with Stanley Cohen, the attorney whose past clients, oh, include Hamas, Hezbollah, the son-in-law of Osama bin Laden. Using his extensive contacts and working with the FBI’s blessing, Cohen flew to the Middle East, where he developed a plan to free Peter Kassig through talks between figures aligned with al-Qaeda and Islamic State. But the plan fell apart when the U.S. ally, Jordan, arrested the leading cleric who played the key role in the talks and the U.S. refused to intervene. Kassig was beheaded shortly after.
This is a report by The Guardian, an excerpt of a report, that details part of Stanley Cohen’s efforts earlier this year.
PHOEBE GREENWOOD: On October 13th, Cohen flew to Kuwait to meet a group of al-Qaeda veterans whom he had codenamed "the Food Group." The only way Kassig would be released, they advised, was in a deal negotiated by Salafist sheikhs, the scholastic heads of the jihadist movement. Cohen also contacted an assistant attorney general and the FBI, seeking support for his mission. Cohen asked the FBI to sanction his approach to Sheikh Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi in Jordan, al-Qaeda’s spiritual leader. Only someone with Maqdisi’s standing could bend the ear of his ISIS counterpart, ideologue Turki bin Ali.
EMAIL: October 23rd, email, FBI contact to Cohen: "Was just told by my coworker in the country you’re in the call is a go."
PHOEBE GREENWOOD: Maqdisi agreed to help Cohen. The sheikh initiated a dialogue with bin Ali, a negotiation based on three pillars. One, Maqdisi would stop all public criticism of ISIS. Two, ISIS, in return, would abandon its tactic of kidnapping and executing Western journalists and aid workers. And, three, as a gesture of good faith, ISIS would release Peter Kassig.
EMAIL: October 25th: "There is support among both the religious heavyweights and some of the important guys on the ground."
PHOEBE GREENWOOD: Cohen boarded a flight from Jordan to Kuwait bearing good news for his al-Qaeda contacts. The sheikhs were on track to make a deal. But within a few hours of Cohen’s flight leaving Amman, Jordanian security forces arrested Maqdisi on Internet terrorism charges. Cohen claimed to have been blindsided by the arrest, but al-Qaeda’s trust in him evaporated. The talks collapsed, and with his key advocate now in prison, Kassig’s life was back on the line.
EMAIL: October 30th: "Plugs been pulled for now on talks. ... [P]pl more than a bit spoked and feeling betrayed."
PHOEBE GREENWOOD: Cohen returned to New York deflated. Kassig’s execution had been delayed, but he told the FBI hopes for his release had dissolved with Maqdisi’s arrest. Anger at this betrayal burned any inclination among the sheikhs to cooperate. On November 16th, the worst happened.
EMAIL: November 16th: "Oh my God. Just woke up to see your message I have reached out."
PHOEBE GREENWOOD: The video announcing Kassig’s execution was released.
ED KASSIG: A while ago, we were informed that our beloved son, Abdul-Rahman, no longer walks this Earth.
PAULA KASSIG: In 26 years, he has witnessed and experienced firsthand more of the harsh realities of life than most of us can imagine.
AMY GOODMAN: That report by The Guardian. And we’ll link to the Guardian website for the full video report.
Well, Stanley Cohen joins us now in our New York studio, veteran human rights attorney who brokered the secret talks aimed at winning Peter Kassig’s release.
We welcome you to Democracy Now!
STANLEY COHEN: Thank you for inviting me.
AMY GOODMAN: So, what happened? Explain how it was that the man that the U.S. was also allowing you to speak with in these negotiations was then arrested by Jordan. And what did the U.S. do about that?
STANLEY COHEN: The truth may not be known for many years, but the reality of it is that we had negotiated a protocol between the Jordanian intelligence and the United States government, a five-point protocol which specifically permitted Sheikh Maqdisi, who is, by some, the most important jihadi—for lack of a better word—imam in the world, to specifically speak with one of his students, Turki bin Ali, who is the grand mufti of ISIS. That was reduced to writing. We have the exchange of emails between the government and ourselves.
After two or three days of negotiations around the terms and conditions of those discussions, while discussions were going on with Gitmo veterans in Kuwait with other people at the same time, I received an email that said, from the government, "Spoken to co-worker on the ground. The talks are a go." The talks began. I saw on WhatsApps the exchanges of information, the discussions, while I was in Jordan, between bin Ali and Maqdisi. It was clearly moving in the right direction. It didn’t involve the exchange of money or anything else. This was going to be a personal request by the Maqdisi in exchange for stopping his verbal attacks upon ISIS.
From nowhere, after the Jordanians had approved of this negotiation, he was arrested. He was seized, the conditions being, although they changed—they said there were a variety of reasons for the arrest—it came down to the fact that he was talking to ISIS, and he wasn’t allowed to, despite the fact that we had a protocol agreed to by the U.S. government and the Jordanian government.
At the same time, when I returned to Kuwait, Kuwaiti intelligence people moved in on ex-Gitmo people that were involved, and threatened to arrest them if they continued negotiations or discussions with ISIS around two points. It wasn’t just around the release of Peter Kassig; it was also around stopping the seizing of civilians, stopping the seizing of journalists, the beheading and capture of journalists and aid workers as a new process in the region.
AARON MATÉ: When you say there was a protocol agreed to by the U.S. and Jordan, you had confirmation from the U.S. that they authorized the channel with this figure that you were dealing with?
STANLEY COHEN: We provided a hundred pages of email exchanges between myself and a person who’s a lead person with the FBI, which laid out the protocol, the five steps that were required in order for Maqdisi to do it, which after two days said, "The calls are a go. You can do it." Maqdisi began the calls. The calls were positive. It happened at the same time—keep in mind, there had been no beheadings for six weeks. When I was told to come to the Middle East, we were told—we conveyed I wasn’t coming unless there was a guarantee that Mr. Kassig would be alive and at that point the beheadings would stop. For some six weeks, no one was beheaded. This was a protocol. It was negotiated. It was reduced to writing. It was shared with Sheikh Maqdisi. It was shared with Sheikh Qatada, another former al-Qaeda heavyweight, so to speak. And the talks were underway.
AARON MATÉ: So talk about these talks, how they went, when you were shuttling between Jordan and Kuwait.
STANLEY COHEN: Well, there were two different angles or approaches. One had to do with ex-Gitmo. Imagine you’re an ex-Gitmo veteran. When I say "veteran," you were a prisoner. People who had been tortured in Bagram, in Kandahar, in Gitmo, they made a decision. These were folks that I had worked with over the prior few years in some cases of mine. They made a decision it was in the best interest, for a whole lot of reasons, for these beheadings to stop.
I was told to come to the Middle East. The people in Kuwait were negotiating with fighters, essentially, from ISIS, while I was told I had to go to Jordan to speak with Maqdisi and with Qatada, because if they were going to release anyone, ISIS, it would only come through discussions with Sheikh Maqdisi. I went. We met. There was a protocol set up. There were telephones that were purchased. There were communications that were underway. The government was aware of what was proceeding at all times. They made a request for the identity of the three people that Maqdisi was speaking with. He agreed to provide them. He provided them. The FBI had them. The discussions were underway.
Not only were there no beheadings for six weeks at all, but al-Qaeda for the first time made public pronouncements calling for the saving of Mr. Kassig and the cessation of beheadings. So, clearly, there was positive movement underway that had nothing to do with money, that had nothing to do with buying freedom, that had—it was all based upon a discussion between religious leaders who were opposed to the beheadings, opposed to the captors, and ISIS, their leadership, their religious leadership.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did Jordan say they arrested him? And what did the U.S. or didn’t the U.S. do?
STANLEY COHEN: Well, initially, Jordan said they arrested Maqdisi because of a post that he had done a month before. I find it interesting—a post in which he called for unification because of the new crusades, meaning the bombings. I found it interesting that Jordan arrested him and told the U.S. it was OK and go for it and you can do it, knowing two days later he was to be arrested.
After his arrest, I reached out to the government immediately, and I was very blunt. I said, "You’ve just basically killed—not you, but we’ve all been sandbagged. Someone needs to get on the phone, whether it’s the White House or the State Department. Pick up a phone, call Jordan, release Maqdisi, get these talks underway, get them moving once again." I had had discussions again with people in Kuwait who took the same position. The discussions could proceed. We just needed to get Maqdisi back out.
Maqdisi wasn’t charged with acts of terrorism. He wasn’t charged with any acts of conspiracy. Eventually, we found out he was essentially arrested because of the very communications and contacts that had been authorized by the United States and agreed to by Jordanian intelligence.
AARON MATÉ: Can you talk about the geopolitical implications of these talks that you’re brokering here? I mean, here you have figures aligned with al-Qaeda reaching out to figures aligned with ISIS, who have been at odds. That speaks to a potential restoring of ties between the two.
STANLEY COHEN: Listen, the record of Sheikh Maqdisi and Qatada was very clear. They had absolutely no use for ISIS whatsoever. They found their tactics to be repugnant to Islam. This was not about a rapprochement. The United States has tried to argue that one of the problems is it would have been a rapprochement. Rapprochement was never on the table. There was a very public debate, a, at times, very aggressive and offensive debate between ISIS and these other sheikhs. The agreement was that in exchange for the release of Mr. Kassig, for this new bridge which was going to stop attacking journalists, stop attacking aid workers and civilians, they were going to tone down the debate. There was never a chance of any rapprochement, of the true groups merging, of creating a new sort of tsunami of terrorism. It just wasn’t going to happen. As Sheikh Qatada has described ISIS, they’re a bunch of thugs. They want nothing to do with them. These are the same people that had negotiated the release, without money, of 36 peacekeepers from a different group in the region just six months before. They were interested in a cessation of these types of violent, un-Islamic beheadings and capturings of civilians. This was not about ever a reunification of two groups that were fighting each other.
AMY GOODMAN: So what did the U.S. say to you when you said, "You’ve got to get on the phone to Jordan and have him released"?
STANLEY COHEN: "We can’t get involved." Nonsense. Three weeks later, the president is sitting there with Abdullah in the White House, giving him an extra $400 million a year for 10 years to lead the ISIS battle. The United States made a decision—I don’t know if it was the White House, I don’t know if it was the State Department—they made a decision to throw Mr. Kassig under the bus, because, for whatever reason, the Jordanian government did not want this to happen.
Now, I have my own theory. My theory is simple: that there are surrogate states in the region that were very much concerned about nonstate actors, such as these persons, being able to accomplish what they couldn’t accomplish, which would have caused them tremendous loss of financial aid from the U.S. They didn’t want it to happen. They prevented it from happening. And I’m convinced that had Sheikh Maqdisi not been arrested, Mr. Kassig would have been saved, and this—there would have been a cessation of these practices.
AMY GOODMAN: And where is Sheikh Maqdisi today?
STANLEY COHEN: He’s still in prison. He’s in Jordan being—every 15 days, he sees an intelligence judge, who just renews it, renews it, renews it.
AARON MATÉ: What about the motive of the U.S.?
STANLEY COHEN: Well, there are some who believe that the U.S. didn’t want it to happen, that they were afraid of this rapprochement, that they wanted the best of all worlds. They wanted to be able to say, "We’re trying an innovative approach to obtain the release." They were shocked at the speed by which we really moved. This occurred within a 17-day period. We’re not talking about a year and a half. And eventually the United States made a decision—someone in the U.S. made a decision: "We’re not going to change our geopolitical policies. We’re not going to tell Jordan what to do." And Mr. Kassig died.
AMY GOODMAN: Stanley Cohen, you are facing 18 months in prison right now.
STANLEY COHEN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
AMY GOODMAN: Next week you go to jail for tax evasion.
STANLEY COHEN: Not tax invasion, impeding the IRS code.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel there’s any connection between what you’re going to be serving time for and the kind of work you’ve been doing over these years?
STANLEY COHEN: No, anyone who knows me knows I’ve been harassed for 15 years. The investigation into my work for Hamas started more than 15 years ago, with clients harassed, with people being told if they gave me up, they’d get out of jail. There’s been a steady practice, raids on my office. There has been monitoring that’s going on. There’s been harassment of my family. It’s caused tremendous time and effort in terms of my practice.
I find it interesting, the disconnect between me, who supposedly is this person who put his own interests ahead of the U.S. government, but when it came to my going to the region, when it came to the U.S. government making decisions on the basis of my recommendation, there was no problem whatsoever. I was assigned to a federal judge that I’d been fighting with for 20 years. There were prosecutors who were assigned to this case who were recently called liars by federal judges. Anyone who knows me knows the concept of me, who’s done so much pro bono work, especially in the Middle East, being engaged in obstruction of tax, knows it’s rubbish.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you for being with us, Stanley Cohen, veteran human rights attorney, brokered the secret talks for Peter Kassig’s release. Ultimately, those talks failed, and Peter Kassig was beheaded. Stanley Cohen begins serving an 18-month prison term over tax offenses, a case he says is politically motivated based on his years of taking on controversial cases. We’ll do a post-show with him. We’ll post it online at democracynow.org.
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Indonesian Rescuers Find Bodies, Debris from AirAsia Flight
Indonesian rescuers have found dozens of bodies and debris from a passenger plane that was carrying 162 people when it disappeared on the way to Singapore Sunday. The remains were found in the Karimata Strait off the coast of Borneo. AirAsia Flight 8501 had requested permission to climb to a higher altitude amidst bad weather, but the response was delayed due to heavy air traffic, and the plane disappeared.
Greece: Anti-Austerity Syriza Party Headed for Victory in Early Elections
Leftists in Greece appear poised for a historic victory after lawmakers rejected the prime minister’s nominee for president, setting the stage for early elections next month. The failed vote for president triggers the dissolution of Parliament and comes amidst mounting outrage over austerity policies which have come as part of Greece’s international bailout. The left-wing Syriza party is leading in polls, paving the way for Europe’s first election of an anti-bailout party bent on reversing deep cuts demanded by international lenders. Alexis Tsipras, leader of the Syriza party, and likely the next prime minister of Greece, celebrated Monday’s outcome.
Alexis Tsipras: "Today, my friends, is the beginning of the end of the regime that sunk the country into poverty, unemployment, grief and desperation — the beginning of the end of those who were shamelessly servants of catastrophic policies."
Tsipras has pledged to provide aid to the poor and renegotiate the terms of Greece’s bailout, raising the prospect of a showdown with European lenders that could renew economic uncertainty.
Somalia: U.S. Targets Al-Shabab Leader with Drone Strike
The U.S. military has carried out a drone strike in Somalia targeting a senior leader of the militant group al-Shabab. The Pentagon has said it does not believe any civilians were killed in the strike, but did not say whether the target was killed. Last week, on Christmas, al-Shabab attacked the African Union base in Mogadishu, killing nine people in what it said was retaliation for another U.S. drone strike which killed the group’s leader in September. On Saturday, another top al-Shabab figure who was the subject of a $3 million U.S. bounty surrendered to authorities in Somalia.
U.S.-Led Forces Launch 18 Strikes Against ISIS
U.S.-led forces have also continued their bombardment of Islamic State militants, with 12 air strikes in Syria and six in Iraq on Monday.
Report: NATO Kill List Targeted Drug Dealers, Lower-Level Taliban Members in Afghanistan
A new report has revealed a kill list used by the U.S.-led NATO coalition in Afghanistan targeted not only high-level commanders of the Taliban, but mid- and lower-level operatives and even drug dealers. The secret documents, at least some of which came from National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden, span from 2009 to 2011. According to the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel, which reviewed them, they show targeted killings were "not just viewed as a last resort to prevent attacks, but were in fact part of everyday life in the guerilla war in Afghanistan." In one case, a young boy was killed and his father injured by a British helicopter pilot who was targeting a suspected mid-level Taliban commander.
Snowden Docs Show NSA Thwarted by Certain Kinds of Encryption
Another round of documents from Edward Snowden published by Der Spiegel show some encryption tactics have successfully thwarted spying by the National Security Agency. An NSA document describes "catastrophic" levels of difficulty penetrating the communications of users who employed a combination of different encryption technologies.
Liberia Sees Flare-Up of Ebola Along Border; Scottish Nurse Diagnosed
Liberian officials are reporting a new flare-up of Ebola cases along the border with Sierra Leone. The announcement of dozens of new cases comes after Liberia reported strides in combating the virus. The news comes as the death toll in the three worst-hit countries in West Africa has topped 7,800, with more than 20,000 infected. In Britain, meanwhile, a nurse who recently returned to Scotland from Sierra Leone has been flown to London for treatment after she was diagnosed with Ebola. Pauline Cafferkey is the first person diagnosed with Ebola on British soil. Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the risk to the public is minimal.
Nicola Sturgeon: "I think it’s very important to stress, particularly for the benefit of those watching, that the risk to other people as a result of this confirmed Ebola case is deemed to be extremely low. Given the early stage of diagnosis, the patient was displaying no symptoms of the kind that would lead to onward transmission and put other people at risk, before she reported this morning as being unwell."
In the United States, a technician may have been exposed to Ebola at a facility run by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The worker is under observation after handling samples which were supposed to have been deactivated.
Autopsy: Ezell Ford Shot by Los Angeles Police 3 Times, Once in Back
An autopsy report shows an unarmed African-American man killed by Los Angeles police was shot three times. The coroner’s report shows 25-year-old Ezell Ford was shot in the right side, right arm and the back, where the imprint of a gun muzzle was found, showing he was shot at very close range. Police allege that Ford, who suffered from mental illness, tried to grab an officer’s gun during a confrontation. But his family members and at least one eyewitness say he was complying with police and lying on the ground when he was shot. The police and district attorney are conducting an investigation into the shooting, which happened in August, and Ford’s family has filed a civil rights lawsuit.
Israeli Military Kills 17-Year-Old Boy in West Bank
The Israeli military has shot and killed a 17-year-old in the West Bank. The military says soldiers opened fire on a group of people who were throwing rocks, killing a teenager identified as Imam Jamil Ahmad Dweikat. But a friend of the deceased who was injured in the attack denied the pair were throwing rocks, and told the Palestinian Ma’an News Agency his friend was killed "in cold blood."
Alumni Letter Calls for Israelis to Boycott Military Service
The news comes after more than 50 alumni, former educators and staff of the prestigious Israel Arts and Sciences Academy in Jerusalem have issued a call for graduates to refuse service in the Israeli military. Such service is mandatory in Israel, and those who refuse may face jail. The letter calls military refusal a "moral stance against a collective mood manifested in racism and violence on every street these days."
House Majority Whip Rep. Steve Scalise Spoke at White Supremacist Summit in 2002
One of the top Republicans in Congress has acknowledged he spoke to a gathering of white supremacists and neo-Nazis in 2002 while he was serving as a state representative in Louisiana. Rep. Steve Scalise, who serves as House majority whip, has confirmed reports he spoke at a convention organized by the European-American Unity and Rights Organization, or EURO, founded by former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke. Scalise told the New Orleans Times-Picayune he did not recall the conference and "didn’t know who all of these groups were." "For anyone to suggest that I was involved with a group like that is insulting and ludicrous," Scalise said.
New York GOP Rep. Michael Grimm to Resign in Reversal of Stance
New York Republican Rep. Michael Grimm has announced he will resign after pleading guilty to felony tax evasion at his New York City fast-food restaurant Healthalicious. After entering the plea last week, Grimm had said he would "absolutely not" resign, but he reportedly reversed himself after speaking with Republican House Speaker John Boehner on Monday. The probe into Grimm’s finances made national headlines earlier this year when he threatened to break a local TV reporter in half and throw him over a balcony for asking him about it.
New York State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver Probed over Payments
The resignation of Rep. Michael Grimm comes as federal authorities are reportedly investigating a top Democrat in New York state over payments he received from a law firm that specializes in real-estate tax reductions. According to The New York Times, New York State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver did not disclose the payments as required.
NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio Booed at Police Graduation Ceremony
New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio is due to meet with police union leaders today, a day after he was booed by some graduates at police graduation. De Blasio faces tensions with the unions over contract negotiations and his comments about racial profiling and police brutality, including saying he feared for his biracial son, Dante. As he took the stage to speak at police academy graduation Monday, de Blasio faced both applause and booing.
Bill de Blasio: "Congratulations, officers. It is an honor to call you officers. You have reached this moment in your lives through hard work, and I want to congratulate you all for what you have achieved. This is a historic day in your lives. It is a day your city thanks you."
Chipotle Apologizes for Brooklyn Worker’s "Hands Up, Don’t Shoot" Gesture at Police
The fast-food chain Chipotle has apologized to police officers after an employee made a "hands up, don’t shoot" gesture at officers who entered a restaurant in Brooklyn, New York. Since the Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson, Missouri, the hands-up gesture has become a symbol for police killings of unarmed African Americans. Chipotle’s CEOs said they had taken "appropriate actions" against the employee.
Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant Shuts Down
One of the nation’s oldest and most controversial nuclear power plants has gone offline following decades of protests against it. The Vermont Yankee plant, which ran for more than 40 years, had faced a series of radioactive tritium leaks. Its operator, Entergy, announced plans to close it last year, citing financial reasons.
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