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Undocumented Trans Activist Jennicet Gutiérrez Challenges Obama on Deportations at White House Event
President Obama’s immigration policy came under direct challenge Wednesday at the White House. As Obama spoke to a gathering celebrating LGBT Pride Month, Jennicet Gutiérrez, an undocumented trans activist from Mexico, interrupted him from the crowd and called for an end to deportations. Gutiérrez is a founding member of Familia: TQLM, established to advocate for LGBTQ immigrants often excluded in the immigration debate. She joins us to discuss her action at the White House.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: President Obama’s immigration policy came under direct challenge Wednesday at the White House. As Obama spoke to a gathering celebrating LGBT Pride Month, an undocumented LGBT activist from Mexico called for an end to deportations.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: I want to thank all of you—advocates, organizers, friends, families—for being here today. And over the years, we’ve gathered to celebrate Pride Month, and I’ve told you that I’m so hopeful about what we can accomplish. I’ve told you that the civil rights of LGBT Americans—
JENNICET GUTIÉRREZ: President Obama—
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Yeah, hold on a second.
JENNICET GUTIÉRREZ: Release all LGBTQ detention centers! President Obama, stop the torture and abuse of trans women in detention centers! President Obama, I am a trans woman. I’m tired of the abuse. I’m tired [inaudible]—
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Listen, you’re in my house. As a general rule, I am just fine with a few hecklers, but not when I’m up in the house.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s right. He said, "This is my house." Well, joining us now from Washington, D.C., is Jennicet Gutiérrez, the undocumented trans activist from Mexico who interrupted President Obama, founding member of Familia: TQLM, established to advocate for LGBTQ immigrants often excluded in the immigration debate.
What exactly did you say, Jennicet? How did you get into the White House? What was the message you had for President Obama?
JENNICET GUTIÉRREZ: Good morning, Amy. Thank you so much for having me. I wanted to send a very strong message to President Obama. And what I was trying to say was for Mr. Obama to release all LGBTQ detainees in detention centers; in addition, to stop the abuse and the torture trans women are facing in detention; and basically, that the message at the end was to stop all deportations.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Jennicet, could you explain how you got into the White House?
JENNICET GUTIÉRREZ: I did get an invite from another—Angela Peoples, who is a friend of mine who works for GetEQUAL. She had an extra ticket, and she has seen my activisms that I have done in the last six months. So she gathered my information, submitted it to the White House, and I got clearance to be a participant in the speech.
AMY GOODMAN: So, as you were escorted out by the security, you were taking a great risk, Jennicet. You’re undocumented. You’re a trans activist from Mexico. What did they say to you? And were you concerned that you, yourself, would be in jeopardy?
JENNICET GUTIÉRREZ: That is correct. I knew that was a big risk to take, but, to me, I’ve always been a risk taker. And the message and giving the voice to my community, that don’t have that voice, was more important than facing any consequences. As I was being escorted out, the Secret Service and the security were just very silent. They weren’t questioning me or giving me any specific orders. I just continued to pass out of the White House. Once I was out there, they kind of held me for 20 minutes or so. They wanted to double-check my identity and basically—
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jennicet, we have to leave it there, but I want to thank you very much for being with us. Again, Jennicet Gutiérrez, undocumented trans activist from Mexico, founding member of the group Familia: TWLM. This is Democracy Now! Tomorrow we’ll be in Charleston, South Carolina.
Did Chris Christie Send Entrapped Innocents to Jail? Re-examining the Case of the Fort Dix 5
As Republican New Jersey Governor Chris Christie prepares to enter the presidential race, we look at a case often cited as one of his crowning achievements during his time as U.S. attorney: the case of the Fort Dix Five. In 2008, five men from suburban New Jersey were convicted of conspiring to kill American soldiers at the Fort Dix Army base. As U.S. attorney, Christie was responsible for prosecuting the case. A new article in The Intercept suggests three of the convicts, the Duka brothers, were entrapped by government agents and not predisposed to commit a terrorist crime. We are joined by Intercept reporter Murtaza Hussain, whose latest piece is "Christie’s Conspiracy: The Real Story Behind the Fort Dix Five Terror Plot."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: As Republican New Jersey Governor Chris Christie prepares to enter the presidential race, we look at a case often cited as one of his crowning achievements during his time as U.S. attorney: the case of the Fort Dix Five. In 2008, five men from suburban New Jersey were convicted of conspiring to kill American soldiers at the Fort Dix Army base. As U.S. attorney, Christie was responsible for prosecuting the case.
The Intercept has just published a piece re-examining the case. It’s titled "Christie’s Conspiracy: The Real Story Behind the Fort Dix Five Terror Plot." The Intercept has also just released a short accompanying video that includes a lengthy interview with Burim Duka. Three of his brothers were arrested in the plot and remain locked up. The video begins with then-U.S. Attorney Chris Christie speaking in 2007 from the steps of the federal courthouse in Camden, New Jersey.
CHRIS CHRISTIE: The philosophy that supports and encourages jihad around the world against Americans came to live here in New Jersey and threaten the lives of our citizens through these defendants. Fortunately, law enforcement in New Jersey was here to stop them.
BURIM DUKA: My oldest brother is Dritan Duka. The second oldest is Shain Duka. The third oldest is Eljvir. My three brothers and two other defendants got arrested for conspiracy to attack a military base here in New Jersey, the Fort Dix military base. We used to go out in the wintertime, when—because we owned a roofing company, we couldn’t work wintertime, when it was snowing, so we would go on a vacation with just us guys.
UNIDENTIFIED: There he is! He’s coming!
UNIDENTIFIED: Here comes Shain, right there! Look at him! Yo, this is nice! Oh, it’s a nice view.
BURIM DUKA: We were recording, of course, so that everybody could have a little clip of what we did when we were in the Poconos.
UNIDENTIFIED: I’ll record. Want me to record? Allahu Akbar.
BURIM DUKA: And then, me and my brother, Suleiman, we went to Circuit City to transfer the cassette that we had into a DVD for each person that went to the Poconos with us, so they could have one.
UNIDENTIFIED: We’re at the range for the second time, going to try to shoot some more. This is what we did yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED: Hey, throw something up for me. Throw a snowball up for me.
UNIDENTIFIED: Allahu Akbar.
UNIDENTIFIED: Man, this thing is fantastic!
BURIM DUKA: The Circuit City person turned in the video to the police and said, "These people are shouting out, 'Allahu Akbar!'"—which means "God is great—"while shooting weapons." Then the FBI started investigating us from that day on. They got two informants involved—Mahmoud Omar, an Egyptian guy, and Besnik Bakalli, who was an Albanian informant. He was mainly here for us Duka brothers. Bakalli, because we stood with him more, he would always try to bring up topics about like politics, about what was going on in the news, was always trying to bring up jihad, why are we not doing nothing, how come we’re not overseas. Older people and women are doing stuff, and we’re not. He would always try to get on our bad side, but we always played it cool.
BESNIK BAKALLI: You learn the Qur’an. You’re going by Qur’an. And you’re going to—you’re not fighting for Muslims. You’re still questioning yourself. Why you’re not fighting for Muslims?
ELJVIR DUKA: Oh, Besnik.
TONY DUKA: Because we have nothing to do with that.
UNIDENTIFIED: We don’t—well, we don’t have the balls to go and die.
BESNIK BAKALLI: Don’t question yourself.
SHAIN DUKA: Oh, Besnik!
BESNIK BAKALLI: That’s what I’m saying.
SHAIN DUKA: I will tell you straight up: We don’t have the balls to do that.
BESNIK BAKALLI: No, don’t say that, because when our elders have gone to fight, how can we just sit at watch?
SHAIN DUKA: We don’t have the balls. We’re not gonna do nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED: We’re talking—we’re talking about certain death. You put bombs on your body, and you hit ’em up.
SHAIN DUKA: No, that I wouldn’t do. That I wouldn’t do. I’d rather go out
UNIDENTIFIED: It’s up—it’s up to you.
SHAIN DUKA: I cannot do that.
BESNIK BAKALLI: Yo, if you guarantee me I go to heaven, I do it. Would you guarantee me that?
SHAIN DUKA: No.
BURIM DUKA: The informant, Omar, hung out with our friend, Shnewer. Shnewer wasn’t like my brothers. He said all types of crazy things. And together, the informant and Shnewer came up with a plot to attack Fort Dix. The informant needed Shnewer to say that my brothers were in on the plot. But once the government seen that my brothers weren’t in and knew nothing about it, they created an illegal gun deal. Mahmoud Omar knew that my brothers were into guns. He spent a lot of time with us. He set up the deal for my brothers to buy some weapons, and the weapons were provided by the FBI.
TONY DUKA: This is an M-15.
MAHMOUD OMAR: What is the difference between 16 and 15?
TONY DUKA: Sixteen is more powerful.
MAHMOUD OMAR: Sixteen is more power?
TONY DUKA: Sixteen is what the military uses. What’s that?
SHAIN DUKA: It’s an ambulance.
AMY GOODMAN: An excerpt from a new video The Intercept, directed by Razan Ghalayini, on the Fort Dix Five. The video goes on to include a confession from one of the informants, Mahmoud Omar, who says the Duka brothers were innocent of any crime.
MAHMOUD OMAR: I don’t know nothing about those guys. And I said that in court. Those Dukas, they didn’t do nothing, and I never heard nothing from them. They are good and kind people.
AMY GOODMAN: [We’re joined] right now by Murtaza Hussain, a reporter at The Intercept. His latest piece is "Christie’s Conspiracy: The Real Story Behind the Fort Dix Five Terror Plot." Still with us is former FBI agent Mike German.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Murtaza. Talk about this case and what now-governor, then-U.S. attorney, Chris Christie had to do with it and who still remains in jail.
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: So, in 2007, this represented one of the most high-profile terrorism investigations in the post-9/11 era. At the time, it was reported that a group of men were planning to attack the Fort Dix military base, Albanian immigrants to the U.S. And it was trumpeted as a major uncovering of a major plot against the U.S. Chris Christie was then U.S. attorney at the time, and he was integrally responsible for prosecuting this case and generating the charges against these men.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain what happened next.
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: So, after the Duka family went on a family vacation to the Poconos, they dropped off a video of their trip to a local Circuit City. In the video, they had done horseback riding, skiing, and they had gone to a shooting range. And they peppered their phrases with Arabic phrases, as people tend to do who are of Muslim background. The Circuit City people got alarmed by this. They reported to police. The police forwarded the tape to the FBI, and the FBI proceeded to introduce two informants into the lives of the Duka brothers.
These informants befriended them over the course of about 18 months. They recorded them. They tried to goad them into saying things. They tried to get them to commit a criminal act. And they were never successful. There was another man—not one of the Duka brothers—who went along with the informants’ plot separately, but the Dukas themselves never even knew about a Fort Dix plot. And then, in 2007, when they were arrested, they were charged with this plot to attack the base, and they ended up being convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment. And they’re all still serving life today.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Mike German, could you talk about the increasing use of FBI informants following 9/11 and what the effects of that were and to what extent that policy still continues today?
MIKE GERMAN: Sure. So, after 9/11, terrorism became the FBI—actually, preventing terrorism became the FBI’s number one mandate, so they transferred a lot of resources and agents to work in counterterrorism. They expanded the Joint Terrorism Task Forces and expanded the informants dedicated to counterterrorism work. And this technique—informants are not new. Law enforcement has—as long as there’s been law enforcement, there have been informants. And I did undercover work often with informants. But what has changed is this methodology.
Number one, typically, you would not use an informant who had a more serious criminal record than the subject of the investigation. That just didn’t make any sense that you would put somebody who’s a really bad person to just ensnare somebody else, when you don’t have significant evidence that that person is engaged in violent crime. So, it’s who’s being used to target who, and then the use of these techniques where the inducement and the coercion is so significant that it would not have survived muster. I mean, before 9/11, if I had asked the FBI to open an undercover terrorism investigation and told them that the person was not associated with any real terrorist group and had no weapons of their own and had no plot of their own, that that was all part of the operation, they would have probably sent me to psych counseling.
AMY GOODMAN: Murtaza?
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: And that was exactly the case in the Fort Dix case. There was no terrorist group. There was no plot to speak of. And there were no weapons, until the informant was introduced in the lives of these men.
AMY GOODMAN: And Chris Christie, specifically, the man who might well run for president of the United States?
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: Chris Christie was the U.S. attorney at the time of this case, and he was responsible for prosecuting the case. And in that clip you just saw, he gave this very incendiary press conference where he trumpeted these arrests in the immediate aftermath. For Christie, now governor, this case was huge to his career. He still discusses it to this day. He cites it as an example of defeating terrorism on his watch, when, in reality, the facts of the case are very troubling. It was a very dubious investigation and a very aggressive and malicious prosecution, which resulted in sending a number of men who may well have been completely innocent to jail for the rest of their lives.
AMY GOODMAN: What did Chris Christie know?
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: Chris Christie, well, we don’t know what he knew at the beginning of this case, but as the trial started to develop, it became very clear that there was not—there was a very glaring absence of evidence against the Duka brothers in this case. And this was even acknowledged at trial by the judge. During the sentencing hearing, when he delivered the sentences, he noted the lack of direct evidence and said that it did not seem to bother him nor the jury. So this is just indicative of the way, the callous—
AMY GOODMAN: So is it being appealed?
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: The brothers have launched a series of appeals, which have been denied.
AMY GOODMAN: Where are they imprisoned?
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: They are—two of the brothers are in ADX supermax. They’ve been in solitary for a number of years.
AMY GOODMAN: In?
MURTAZA HUSSAIN: In Colorado, Florence, Colorado, one of the most harsh and brutal prisons in the country, in solitary confinement 23 hours a day. They have not seen their children, nor touched them, since this happened. And their lives have been destroyed. And for what purpose?
AMY GOODMAN: Well—
MIKE GERMAN: And I think one of the things it shows is how the FBI has this concept of terrorist radicalization, that if you have these ideas, you are on a path to terrorism, so therefore it justifies using these extraordinary measures to pull you along the line, even though empirical studies do not support that theory of radicalization that the FBI holds to.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you both for being with us, and we will certainly link to your piece. Murtaza Hussain is a reporter at The Intercept. His latest piece, "Christie’s Conspiracy: The Real Story Behind the Fort Dix Five Terror Plot." And thanks again to Mike German, former special undercover agent for the FBI, now at the Brennan Center. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
Does U.S. Ignore Right-Wing Terror? More Killed by White Extremists Than Jihadists Since 9/11
As thousands head to the South Carolina state Capitol to honor church victim massacre Rev. Clementa Pinckney, a new study finds white supremacists and other non-Muslim fanatics have killed far more people in the United States since 9/11 than Muslim extremists. According to the research center New America, 26 people have been killed in jihadist violence in the U.S. since 9/11, but 48 people have been killed in attacks by right-wing groups. Despite the intense focus by the Obama administration on Muslim communities, non-Muslims have carried out 19 terrorist attacks since September 11, 2001, while Muslims have been responsible for only seven. We are joined by two guests: Mike German, a fellow at NYU’s Brennan Center for Justice and former FBI agent specializing in domestic counterterrorism; and Bud Welch, whose daughter, Julie Marie Welch, was killed in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building on April 19, 1995.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: In South Carolina, thousands of mourners lined up at the state House to pay tribute to the Reverend Clementa Pinckney, a state senator and the Emanuel AME Church pastor, who was among the nine victims killed last week at Bible study in Charleston. Pinckney’s body lay in state ahead of his funeral on Friday. Pinckney is the first African American since Reconstruction to lie in honor in the state rotunda. This comes as a new report finds white supremacists and other non-Muslim fanatics have killed nearly twice as many people as Muslim extremists since 9/11.
AMY GOODMAN: According to the report by the research center New America, 26 people have been killed in jihadist violence in the U.S. since 9/11, but 48 people have been killed in attacks by right-wing groups. Despite the intense focus by the Obama administration on Muslim communities, non-Muslims have carried out 19 terrorist attacks since September 11, 2001, while Muslims have been responsible for only seven.
To talk more about the findings, we’re joined now by Mike German, a fellow at New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice. From 1988 to 2004, he served as an FBI agent specializing in domestic counterterrorism. He left after reporting continuing deficiencies in FBI counterterrorism operations in Congress. He’s the author of Thinking Like a Terrorist: Insights of a Former FBI Undercover Agent.
Still with us in Oklahoma City, Bud Welch, his daughter the victim of a white supremacist. Julie Marie Welch was his daughter. She was killed in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building April 19, 1995, blown up by Timothy McVeigh, who was put to death in 2001.
Mike German, just talk about what might surprise many, given the bent and the focus in at least the public comments of the government.
MIKE GERMAN: Well, I think there are a couple of things that are surprising. One is that this threat from far-right extremists is a persistent threat that has been here for a long time and continues, despite the lack of media coverage of most of those events.
The second is that the numbers are very fluid. Different groups count different events. So the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, for example, put out a report in 2012 that had a far higher number of fatalities as a result of far-right violence. So, rather than the government keeping accurate records based on a specific standard, we have private organizations collecting the numbers under their own standards, so we don’t have a clear picture of the nature and scope of this threat.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, I want to turn to comments made by FBI Director James Comey following the Charleston massacre last week. Speaking at a news conference in Baltimore Friday, Comey said the massacre would be investigated as a hate crime but ruled out the term "terrorism."
JAMES COMEY: I wouldn’t, because of the way we define terrorism under the law. Terrorism is an act of violence done or threatened to—in order to try to influence a public body or the citizenry, so it’s more of a political act. And again, based on what I know so far, I don’t see it as a political act.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was James Comey speaking on Friday, one day before Dylann Roof’s manifesto came to light. So could you talk specifically about what Comey said in light of what you criticize in the FBI’s methodology when they compare Islamist or Muslim extremists and white supremacist violence in the U.S.?
MIKE GERMAN: Sure. So you can imagine the different reaction that would have occurred if Dylann Roof was wearing an ISIS flag on his jacket rather than a Rhodesia flag. And for somebody like me who knows a lot about the white supremacist movement and having been undercover in it, seeing those symbols, seeing the target—you know, the Emanuel AME Church, like many AME churches, isn’t just the spiritual center of the black community, it’s the political center, it’s the social center, so the fact that it’s targeted fits the FBI definition, which is an act of violence intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. And the political purpose is obvious. One of the victims, who was specifically picked out, was a state legislator. So the idea that somehow this wasn’t political, I think, says a lot about the way the FBI views terrorism.
AMY GOODMAN: Were you shocked by James Comey’s comments? I mean, yes, it was a day before we see this manifesto.
MIKE GERMAN: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: But we knew at that point that he said, "I’m going to kill you because you’re black." We knew that he said to a woman who was lying on the floor, "I’m not going to kill you because I want you to tell everyone else," which is terrorizing the rest of the community.
MIKE GERMAN: Exactly.
AMY GOODMAN: So he laid it all out right there. The Justice Department said they were weighing whether it was terrorist, but Comey came right out, FBI director, and has not retracted that statement, even since the manifesto.
MIKE GERMAN: And that is unusual. I mean, usually in an investigation, you wait until the evidence is brought forth. You don’t make a claim about the evidence long before there has been time to investigate it. So it is surprising, but I think, again, reflects this idea that the government has that if you’re using violence to challenge the establishment, to challenge government policy, you’re more dangerous than if you’re using violence in a way that affects minority communities or reinforces establishment status quo. As the Church Committee found, the FBI in the Hoover era saw themselves not as law enforcers but as the guardians of the status quo. And that seems to be—that thinking seems to be reflected in the statement that this act wasn’t political.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So could you say a little bit more about how the West Point center that you talked about, Combating Terrorism Center, how it compiles these statistics and how the FBI does? And what interests are served by the FBI or the government in downplaying hate crimes?
MIKE GERMAN: It’s hard to understand. Congress mandated that the Department of Justice publish the number of hate crimes. Now, the domestic terrorism events that the Combating Terrorism Center talks about are not necessarily the same. There’s sort of a Venn diagram, some of the same of what we would call hate crimes. But the FBI publishes an annual report that says there are about 6,000 to 7,000 hate crimes each year, roughly. I think the last time, which was 2013, the last data published was about 6,000. But the National Institute of Justice, also part of the Justice Department, did an examination and—using a different methodology, and found up to 190,000 hate crimes in a year. So, that disparity is inexplicable, and it definitely shows that the FBI’s methodology doesn’t show the scope of the threat.
AMY GOODMAN: So let’s talk about the problem with not overtly taking this as seriously or counting the numbers of cases there are. You went undercover yourself. Explain what you did.
MIKE GERMAN: So, in 1992, I was asked to go undercover into a group of neo-Nazis who we had some evidence had been engaging in some weapons transactions. So, the investigation started with informants introducing me, and lasted, from start to finish, about 14 months of my involvement, and—
AMY GOODMAN: As an undercover FBI agent.
MIKE GERMAN: As an undercover agent—identified numerous instances of weapons trafficking, manufacture of explosives, use of explosives and conspiracy to do further bombings, including an AME church in Los Angeles. So, at the end of that investigation, we went through the trials. I think there were about eight or 10 people tried, total. And at the end of it, I called the FBI’s domestic terrorism unit and said, "When are we going to have a debriefing, so I can explain everything I learned about how these groups work?" And they said they didn’t need one, that they felt they understood this issue well enough.
AMY GOODMAN: This was when?
MIKE GERMAN: This would have been 1994, after the trials in 1993. So then, after the Oklahoma City bombing, I went back undercover in antigovernment groups, used the same methodology that I had used in the previous investigation, also in a shorter period of time because I didn’t make as many mistakes, was able to basically identify the same criminal activities within the groups. Again, after the trials, I reached out to the domestic terrorism unit, and they told me they didn’t want to debrief me. So part of the problem is that the FBI doesn’t capture the information it knows. I think Sandy Berger, during the 9/11 hearings, said the FBI’s problem isn’t what it doesn’t know, it’s that it doesn’t know what it does know. And so, there isn’t an effort to capture the information agents learn during these investigations. And to this day, the FBI’s domestic terrorism unit has never interviewed me.
AMY GOODMAN: I just want to bring Bud Welch into this conversation, back in. As you listen to Mike German talk about going undercover in white supremacist groups in 1994, asking for a debriefing, they saying they didn’t know it—they didn’t want it, and then, in 1995, Oklahoma City bombing happens—Timothy McVeigh, antigovernment white supremacist, anti-Muslim. Your feelings?
BUD WELCH: Well, I mean, my feelings are very simply that, you know, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols came back from the—from Desert Storm, and when they came back, they were ill, they had PTSD, and the government failed to give them the proper treatment that they should have received. And so, we see those kinds of failures in different branches of government having to do with terrorists. And I think the federal government many times is reluctant to admit that we have homegrown terrorists in the United States. And I think that was the case with McVeigh and Nichols, and that’s why Julie is dead today. And it’s complicated, but it doesn’t have to be that complicated.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: I want to go back to another incident in August 2012, the massacre at the Sikh temple in Wisconsin in which six people were killed. In August, Democracy Now!—of 2012, Democracy Now! spoke to a former senior analyst at the Department of Homeland Security, Daryl Johnson. In 2009, he had called attention to the threat of far-right extremist groups and sparked a political firestorm in the process. The report warned that the election of the first African-American president, combined with economic anxieties, could fuel a rise in far-right violence. Johnson described the fallout from his research, speaking to Democracy Now!
DARYL JOHNSON: I never anticipated that, you know, the Department of Homeland Security, my employer, would actually clamp down on the unit and stop all of the valuable work we were doing. Leading up to this report—and I’ll talk about this at length in my book—my team was doing a lot of good things throughout the country. We received numerous accolades from law enforcement, intelligence officials, talking about the great work we were doing in the fight against domestic terrorism. And then, in lieu of the political backlash, the department decided to not only stop all of our work, stop all of the training and briefings that we were scheduled to give, but they also disbanded the unit, reassigned us to other areas within the office, and then made life increasingly difficult for us. Not only did they stop the work that we were doing, but they also tried to blame us for some of the attacks that were occurring.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was Daryl Johnson speaking to Democracy Now! in August 2012. In a New York Times piece Wednesday headlined "For Domestic Hate, Apply the Vigor and Strategy Used for Muslim Terror," Daryl Johnson wrote, quote, "Domestic terrorism is the national security threat whose name we dare not speak. The numbers of both extremists and the radical movements that spur them to violence are soaring, and coalescing, in alarming ways. Yet through reckless neglect at nearly all levels of government, domestic terrorism not tied to Islam has become a cancer with no diagnosis or plan to address it." Mike German, can you respond to that?
MIKE GERMAN: Sure. I think there are a couple of issues. One, while the number of far-right—the fatalities from far-right attacks is higher than any other group, it’s still relatively small compared to the 14,000 murders that happen each year. So, we have to keep this in context.
AMY GOODMAN: And on that, we should talk about gun violence, but we don’t have time today.
MIKE GERMAN: Exactly, exactly. And the second point is, is there’s an issue in the study of terrorism, whether it’s far-right violence, like the DHS study, or Muslim terrorism—
AMY GOODMAN: And weren’t they forced to revoke that study, to take it back, there was such an outcry?
MIKE GERMAN: Yes. And I criticized the study, as well, because it made a simple causal connection between holding particular ideas and becoming violent. And if you look at the actual empirical studies of people who commit terrorism, there is no simple connection. The ideology is neither necessary—there are plenty of people committing violence without it—nor sufficient—it’s not the only thing. Many thousands of people hold these ideologies, join these groups, who don’t act out. And I knew from my undercover work that many were actually opposed to violence, even though they held abhorrent views that would shock many people. They would tell me, "Do not engage with those knuckleheads over there that you’re hanging out with. You’re just going to get in trouble and make the movement look bad." So we have to be very clear that people need to be able to express their views without being suppressed by government surveillance, and government needs to study the violence rather than the ideologies.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But, of course, as you know, the government and those who support the government’s policies following 9/11 make the argument that the government’s counterterrorism strategy has been successful, and the best proof of that is that there has not been an attack in the U.S. like what occurred on September 11, 2001.
MIKE GERMAN: So, one of the first things you learn as an FBI agent is the absence of evidence is not evidence. And, you know, unfortunately, we have seen far too many people slipping through the cracks. Every death from terrorism is a tragedy, and government needs to understand it. So the last thing that we’d want to see is the excess and abuse used in counterterrorism operations now being brought to domestic terrorism.
AMY GOODMAN: Your final comment, as we head down to Charleston today—we’ll be there tomorrow for the funeral of Reverend Pinckney and the memorial for the Emanuel Nine—who Dylann Storm Roof is, what he was a part of, and the significance of these flags, one of these magic moments in history people fight for for so long? It’s not the particular governors who are actually doing this, because it was a foundation of social activism of years, for example, to take down the flags. But the flags are an integral part of this ideology.
MIKE GERMAN: Absolutely. And one of the things you have to keep in mind is, the flags give aid and comfort to the people who have this hateful, racist ideology. So even if you think it doesn’t represent that, when they see the flag rising, they think that far more people support their ideas and are just more quiet about it, and it gives them comfort that if they just do this one violent act, that will start the revolution. And that’s why you hear them talking about race wars and triggering the race war through an act of violence, is because they think there is this tacit support behind them.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think it’s possible that Dylann might have shot the roof off of the Confederacy?
MIKE GERMAN: Interesting way to put it. It’s sad that it took a tragedy like this to look at this problem and to recognize how this was hurting society and keeping us back. So, it’s good to see that it’s now happening, but that’s really only part of the problem. I mean, we really have to have the government focus on violence rather than ideology, and truly try to understand how terrorism works, so they can develop measures that are narrowly targeted to the people who are actually causing harm.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you very much for being with us, Mike German, fellow at NYU’s Brennan Center for Justice. From 1988 to 2004, he served as an FBI agent specializing in domestic counterterrorism, author of Thinking Like a Terrorist: Insights of a Former FBI Undercover Agent. And thanks to Bud Welch in Oklahoma City. And even 20 years later, as we pass this 20th anniversary, our condolences on the death of Julie, your daughter, killed in the Oklahoma City bombing April 19, 1995. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back in a minute.
The Death Penalty is Revenge, Not Healing: Father of OKC Victim on Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's Sentencing
Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has been formally sentenced to death for his role in the attack that killed three and injured hundreds in 2013. Addressing survivors inside the courtroom, Tsarnaev apologized for the first time, saying in part: "I am sorry for the lives that I’ve taken, for the suffering that I’ve caused you, for the damage that I’ve done." Some of the bombing’s survivors have echoed a recent Boston Globe poll that found fewer than 20 percent of Massachusetts residents support sentencing Tsarnaev to death. We are joined by Bud Welch, who has become a leading anti-death penalty advocate after losing his daughter Julie in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. Welch is the founding president of Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Twenty-one-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev apologized for the first time Wednesday before he was formally sentenced to death for his role in the Boston Marathon bombing that killed three and injured hundreds. He said, quote, "I am sorry for the lives that I’ve taken, for the suffering that I’ve caused you, for the damage that I’ve done. Irreparable damage." He added, quote, "I pray for your relief, for your healing." This was the first time Tsarnaev had spoken in the courtroom since his arraignment two years ago.
During the sentencing, U.S. District Judge George O’Toole Jr. quoted Shakespeare, saying, "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is often interred with their bones. So it will be for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev." Outside the courtroom, U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz addressed the media.
CARMEN ORTIZ: He didn’t renounce terrorism. He didn’t renounce violent extremism. And he couched his comments in line with Allah and Allah’s views, which give it a religious tone. And there was nothing—as you heard Judge O’Toole say in the courtroom, there was nothing about this crime that was Islam-associated. And so, that’s what I was struck by more.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Meanwhile, some of the bombing’s survivors echoed a recent Boston Globe poll that found fewer than 20 percent of Massachusetts residents support sentencing Tsarnaev to death. Henry Borgard said he opposed the death penalty, and responded to Tsarnaev’s statement.
HENRY BORGARD: I was actually really happy that he made the statement. I—as I said in my personal impact statement, I have forgiven him. I have come to a place of peace, and I genuinely hope that he does, as well. And for me to hear him say that he’s sorry, that is enough for me. And I hope, because I still do have faith in humanity, including in him, I hope that his words were genuine. I hope that they were heartfelt. I hope that they were as honest as the statements that you heard today in court from the victims and the survivors. I obviously have no way of knowing that, but I’m going to take it on faith that what he said was genuine. There was a little bit of rhetoric in there; I agree with what you said, absolutely. Some of it was hard to hear, you know? But I really—I was really profoundly affected, really deeply moved that he did do that, because, whether we like to acknowledge it or not, his statement, like ours, takes courage, because the entire world is watching us right now. And the fact that he made a statement, which he didn’t have to do, gives him a little bit of credit in my book.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Henry Borgard. He was, at the time of the bombing, a 21-year-old Suffolk University student in Boston. He was hit by the second blast.
The judge rejected a request to move Dzhokhar Tsarnaev’s execution to New Hampshire, the only New England state with the death penalty, so survivors could more easily be on hand. Prosecutors say Tsarnaev will eventually be taken to federal death row in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Since 1963, the federal government has executed three people, including Timothy McVeigh, who was put to death in June 2001 for the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing that killed 168 people. This year marks the 20th anniversary of the attack on April 19th, 1995.
Our next guest joins us from Oklahoma City. Bill Welch lost his 23-year-old daughter Julie in the attack there. After initially supporting capital punishment for his daughter’s killing, he has become a vocal opponent of the death penalty. He opposed the execution of McVeigh and is the founding president of Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights.
Bud Welch, welcome back to Democracy Now! Your thoughts today? In Boston, we see the death sentence for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. I think the poll said something like 80 to 85 percent of the people of Boston and all of Massachusetts were opposed to the death penalty, even in Dzhokhar Tsarnaev’s case. Can you reflect, as you dealt with this issue 20 years ago?
BUD WELCH: Hi, Amy. I can. You know, I’m reminded, every time something like this happens, that the punishment of the death penalty is nothing more than revenge. And I went through almost a year of revenge after Julie’s death, and—revenge and hate. And one cannot go through the healing process at all when you’re living with revenge. And that’s all the death penalty is, is revenge. It is not a deterrent. It doesn’t, as the media says, bring closure to family members.
There are a lot of victims’ family members here in Oklahoma City that I know, because I spent 13 years on the board of directors and the Oklahoma City National Memorial, and they were looking for the word "closure" at the time McVeigh was executed, on June the 11th of 2001. And I had been telling many of those people that the day that we would take Tim McVeigh from his cage and we would kill him would not be part of their healing process. And they learned that after his death. And many of those people have come forward now and said, "It was a mistake for us to kill Tim McVeigh," because what it did was revictimize them all over again. One of the ladies, that had two little grandchildren that were killed in the day care center—and I will not mention her name, because the whole country knows her name—she has evolved so much that she is now on the board of directors of the Oklahoma Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. And that’s how it has changed her completely.
And I fully understand the people of Boston, how we have those that have already been able to come forward, they’ve had enough time to rationalize that the revenge of killing this young man is not part of their healing process. And we all go through that. And I always say the most important thing to people that have gone through such an event as that, the most important thing that they have is time. And we’re all on a different time schedule. And with enough time, we can finally go through the process.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Bud Welch, you even went so far as to meet the father of the man responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, and therefore responsible for your daughter’s death. Could you talk about meeting Timothy McVeigh’s father?
BUD WELCH: Yes, I met Bill McVeigh on, actually, September the 5th of 1998. I had been contacted by a nun from Attica prison that does ministry work there—in fact, she’s still doing that today. And she had requested that I come to the Buffalo-Niagara Falls area to speak against the death penalty, and I committed to going there for a week. And I had told her the story about seeing Bill McVeigh on television about two weeks after Julie’s death and how that I was—I really didn’t want to see the news program that had him on. But I sat and watched it, and I saw this man with a deep pain in his eye that I recognized immediately because I was living with that same pain at that same time. And I knew that someday I wanted to go tell that man that I did not blame him or his family for what his son had done.
And I had the chance to do that three-and-a-half years after the bombing. And I went and met Bill, met him at his house on a Saturday morning. And what I found was a very nice, gentle man. And he was sickened by the fact that his son had come back from the war in Iraq, and he had PTSD, had it badly, became very much antigovernment, joined militia groups. And he knew—he didn’t know anything that he could do about that. And I’m still in contact with Bill. I talk to him probably every six months.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Bud Welch, what would you say now to the survivors and victims of the Boston Marathon bombing in light of the verdict, the death penalty verdict? What would you say to them now?
BUD WELCH: Well, one thing I would not say to them is that I know how they feel, because I don’t. I know how I felt. But I think the big mistake for people like myself that have gone through an event like this is to tell someone else that’s gone through something else that they know how they feel, because you don’t know how they feel. And when you tell someone you know how they feel, you’re not helping them one bit. You’re actually making matters worse for them.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And you actually suggest that the death penalty verdict—not only does it not help survivors heal, it actually prolongs their suffering. Is that right?
BUD WELCH: Well, sure, absolutely, because in McVeigh’s case, actually, he was not on death row that long, just a little over six years. But the reason that he was only on death row a little over six years is because he was a volunteer. He asked all of his—for all of his appeals to be stopped, and he asked for an execution date. And I don’t think that—if Tim McVeigh had not done that, I don’t think that we would have ever executed him. I think he’d still be alive today, because the federal government really did not want to kill Tim McVeigh.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to ask you to stay with us. We’re going to be talking about the fact, in our next segment, that far more white supremacists have killed more people since 9/11 than Muslim extremists in the United States. And we’d like you to weigh in on this, as well, Bud, having direct experience with being a victim, your daughter killed in the Oklahoma City bombing April 19, 1995, along with 167 others. Bud Welch, speaking to us from Oklahoma City. When we come back, we’re going to be joined by a former FBI special agent, Mike German, to talk about this new study. Stay with us.
Headlines:
Obama Wins Senate Approval for Fast-Track Trade Authority on TPP
The Senate has given final approval to granting President Obama "fast-track" authority to advance the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal through Congress. The secretive accord involves 12 countries and nearly 40 percent of the global economy. Wednesday’s vote followed months of White House lobbying and a standoff with congressional Democrats. Opponents say the TPP will undermine workers’ rights, public health and environmental regulations. Under the new legislation, Congress would hold an up-or-down vote on the final trade pact, without filibustering or amendments. The Senate has also approved a bill that assists workers displaced by trade accords like the TPP.
Federal Hate Crimes Charges Likely Against Suspect in SC Massacre
The Justice Department is expected to file hate crimes charges against Dylann Roof, the white supremacist arrested for last week’s massacre at a historic South Carolina church. Federal investigators have reportedly honed in on the racist manifesto Roof posted online earlier this year.
Bible Study Resumes at AME Church; Thousands Mourn Slain Pastor, Lawmaker at State House
The nine massacre victims were killed as they took part in Bible study at the Emanuel AME Church. On Wednesday, Bible study resumed at the church just one week after the shooting. This comes as thousands of mourners gathered at the South Carolina state House to pay tribute to Rev. Clementa Pinckney, a state senator and the Emanuel AME Church pastor, who was among the nine victims. Pinckney’s body lay in state ahead of his funeral on Friday. Pinckney is the first African American since reconstruction to lie in honor in the state rotunda.
Alabama Governor Orders Removal of Confederate Flag from State Capitol
The public viewing came just steps from where the Confederate flag still flies on the state Capitol grounds. South Carolina lawmakers voted this week to consider taking it down. Meanwhile in Alabama, Governor Robert Bentley has acted on his on by ordering the flags removed from the state Capitol grounds. Also Wednesday, Mississippi Republican Senators Roger Wicker and Thad Cochran backed calls for removing the Confederate battle flag from the state flag.
Boston Marathon Bomber Apologizes at Death Sentence Hearing
Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has been formally sentenced to death for his role in the attack that killed three and injured hundreds in 2013. Addressing survivors inside the courtroom, Tsarnaev apologized for the first time, saying in part: "I am sorry for the lives that I’ve taken, for the suffering that I’ve caused you, for the damage that I’ve done." After the hearing, Boston Marathon survivor Henry Borgard responded to Tsarnaev’s statement.
Henry Borgard: "For me to hear him say that he’s sorry, that is enough for me. And I hope, because I still do have faith in humanity, including in him, I hope that his words were genuine. I hope that they were heartfelt. ... When I made eye contact with him, it wasn’t like looking in the face of a criminal; it was like looking in the face of a boy."
Obama Phones Hollande After WikiLeaks Reveals NSA Spying
The U.S. has told France it’s no longer spying on its leaders following disclosures by the group WikiLeaks. Documents published this week show the National Security Agency spied on President François Hollande and his two predecessors from 2006 to 2012, including listening to and recording cellphone conversations. At the White House, Press Secretary Josh Earnest said President Obama has assured French counterpart François Hollande the spying is no more.
Josh Earnest: "The president was very clear about the fact that the United States does not target and will not target the communications of the president of France, and this is consistent with the conversation that President Obama had with President Hollande during President Hollande’s visit to Washington, D.C., last year, a little over a year ago. You know, we’ve been very clear that foreign intelligence activities are only conducted when there is a specific, validated national security interest involved."
France has denounced the spying, calling it "unacceptable." Hollande held an emergency meeting with his ministers on Wednesday as his government summoned the U.S. ambassador. At a news conference, Secretary of State John Kerry said the spying revelation is based on an "old document."
Secretary of State John Kerry: "This is an old WikiLeaks document. I don’t even know what the date is specifically that it starts out or refers to. I’m just telling you point blank we are not and will not target the conversations of any friendly president, anybody that I know of, and certainly not President Hollande or the French ministry. That is not happening."
Death Toll in Pakistan Heat Wave Nears 800
The death toll from a heat wave in the Pakistani city of Karachi has grown to around 800. Morgues are said to be overflowing with bodies while one hospital has reported treating some 8,000 patients in just four days. Temperatures have reached as high as 113 degrees Fahrenheit. The heat wave in Pakistan follows another in neighboring India last month that killed over 2,500 people.
U.S. to Shorten Detentions of Undocumented Women and Children Seeking Asylum
The Obama administration has announced efforts to reduce the long-term detentions of undocumented immigrant mothers and children caught entering the country illegally. Those with relatives in the U.S. to sponsor them will now be offered bond as they apply for asylum. Announcing the change, Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson said the "detention of families will be short-term in most cases." Some 2,600 mothers and their children are being held at two facilities in Texas and one in Pennsylvania. The vast majority are fleeing violence and domestic abuse in Central America.
Undocumented LGBT Activist Heckles Obama at White House Event
President Obama’s immigration policy came under direct challenge Wednesday from a heckler at the White House. As Obama spoke to a gathering celebrating LGBT Pride Month, an undocumented LGBT activist from Mexico called for an end to deportations.
President Obama: "I want to thank all of you—advocates, organizers, friends, families—for being here today. And over the years, we’ve gathered to celebrate Pride Month, and I’ve told you that I’m so hopeful about what we can accomplish. I’ve told you that the civil rights of LGBT Americans"—
Jennicet Gutiérrez: "President Obama"—
President Obama: "Yeah, hold on a second."
Jennicet Gutiérrez: "Release all LGBTQ detention centers! President Obama, stop the torture and abuse of trans women in detention centers! President Obama, I am a trans woman. I’m tired of the abuse. I’m tired [inaudible]"—
President Obama: "Listen, you’re in my house."
3 Indicted over Death of Matthew Ajibade in Georgia Jail
A grand jury has indicted three state employees over the death of a 21-year-old Nigerian native in a Savannah, Georgia, jail. Matthew Ajibade died on New Year’s Day of what the coroner described as "blunt force trauma," including "abrasions, lacerations, skin injuries about the head and some other areas of the body." At the time of his death, he was restrained in an isolation cell after authorities said he became combative during an altercation that injured deputies. On Wednesday, two former jail employees and a contract health worker were all charged with involuntary manslaughter, among other counts. Nine Chatham County deputies were fired in connection with the case last month.
Obama Unveils Shift on Ransom Efforts by Hostages’ Families
President Obama has formally unveiled his policy shift on private ransoms for U.S. hostages overseas. While the U.S. government will continue to rule out paying ransoms to militant groups, it will stop threatening to prosecute families who raise private funds to win their loved ones’ freedom.
President Obama: "It has been my solemn commitment to make sure that they feel fully supported in their efforts to get their families home and that there is a syncing up of what I know to be sincere, relentless efforts within government and the families, who obviously have one priority and one priority only, and that’s getting their loved ones back. These families have already suffered enough, and they should never feel ignored or victimized by their own government."
The move follows criticism from family members of American hostages. A number of U.S. captives have died in captivity while European hostages were released after their governments paid a ransom.
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WEB EXCLUSIVE
"The Perpetrator Has Been Arrested, But the Killer Is Still at Large" by Amy Goodman
A Confederate flag flies behind the U.S. flag in Charleston, S.C., on Monday. (Darryl Brooks / Shutterstock.com)
The massacre of nine African-American worshippers at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C., has sent shock waves through the nation and could well blow the roof off the Confederacy. Dylann Storm Roof is accused of methodically killing the congregants, reloading his Glock pistol at least twice. He let one victim live, according to a person who spoke with the survivor, so she could tell the world what happened. This brutal mass killing was blatantly racist, an overt act of terrorism.
Those murdered included the minister of the historic church, 41-year-old Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who also was an elected state senator in South Carolina and who was leading a Wednesday night Bible-study group. Roof actually sat in on the group for an hour before the massacre.
What little we know of Roof’s motivation for his alleged crime comes from a website he is believed to have created. A manifesto posted on the site says: “I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.” A survivor of the shooting said that Roof told a victim begging for him to stop the killing: “I have to do it. You’re raping our women and taking over the country. You have to go.”
The website includes photos of Roof brandishing a gun, the .45-caliber Glock that is likely the murder weapon, and the Confederate flag, leading to renewed efforts to remove this symbol of racism and hate from flying on public property. For decades, the Confederate flag flew above the South Carolina Statehouse, along with the U.S. flag and the state flag of South Carolina. After the NAACP began a boycott of the state in the year 2000, a compromise was reached. The Confederate flag was removed from the state Capitol dome and placed on statehouse grounds, alongside a Confederate war memorial.
Among those who first stood up last week in favor of removing the flag was a white Republican serving in the South Carolina legislature, Doug Brannon. He told us on “Democracy Now!”: “I woke up Thursday morning to the news of the death of these nine wonderful people. I knew something had to be done then. ... Clementa Pinckney deserves this. Those nine people deserve this. Our state Capitol needs to be free of the flag.” When we asked him if he would consider a memorial to the victims of the Emanuel AME massacre, he said it was “a wonderful idea.”
The Rev. Dr. William J. Barber II is the president of the North Carolina NAACP. He heard about the slaughter on Wednesday night while in jail. “About 10 of us had been arrested in the state House in North Carolina for challenging extremist politicians who have passed the worst voter-suppression law in the country,” he said. Barber has led the “Moral Mondays” movement, with hundreds to thousands of people protesting weekly against the agenda being passed by North Carolina’s Republican-controlled state government. He favors removal of the Confederate flag, which he calls “vulgar,” but suggested that passing policy would be a more potent memorial to Clementa Pinckney and the other victims.
“Reverend Pinckney was not just opposed to the flag, he was opposed to the denial of Medicaid expansion,” Barber continued. “He was opposed to those who have celebrated the ending of the Voting Rights Act. He was opposed to the lack of funding forpublic education. He wanted to see living wages raised.” Addressing state Rep. Doug Brannon, Barber said: “Let’s put together an omnibus bill in the name of the nine martyrs. And all of the things Reverend Pinckney was standing for, if we say we love him and his colleagues, let’s put all of those things in a one big omnibus bill and pass that and bring it to the funeral on Friday.”
Wal-Mart, Amazon and other major retailers have pulled Confederate paraphernalia from their shelves. Alabama has taken down the flag, and other states, including South Carolina, are following. The symbol of the Southern states’ rebellion and secession, of waging war to protect slavery, will be less visible. But the fight for equality, waged 200 years ago by the very founders of Charleston’s Emanuel AME church, continues. As the Rev. Barber says, systemic change is essential: “The perpetrator has been arrested, but the killer is still at large.”
Denis Moynihan contributed research to this column.
Amy Goodman is the host of “Democracy Now!,” a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on more than 1,200 stations in North America. She is the co-author of “The Silenced Majority,” a New York Times best-seller.
(c) 2015 Amy Goodman
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