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Ben Carson: I am OK with Killing "Thousands of Innocent Children and Civilians"
During Tuesday’s debate, radio host Hugh Hewitt asked Dr. Ben Carson if he was ruthless enough to wage war. "Could you order airstrikes that would kill innocent children by not the scores, but the hundreds and the thousands," Hewitt asked. Carson, a neurosurgeon, responded in part, "You have to be able to look at the big picture and understand that it’s actually merciful if you go ahead and finish the job, rather than death by a thousand pricks." We speak to Zaid Jilani of The Intercept and Bob Herbert, distinguished senior fellow with Demos.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, well, during Tuesday’s Republican debate, Ben Carson was asked if he would be willing to wage war as the commander-in-chief. This clip begins with CNN moderator Hugh Hewitt.
HUGH HEWITT: Dr. Carson, you mentioned in your opening remarks that you’re a pediatric neurologist surgeon—
DR. BEN CARSON: Neurosurgeon.
HUGH HEWITT: And—neurosurgeon. And people admire and respect and are inspired by your life story, your kindness, your evangelical core support. We’re talking about ruthless things tonight—carpet bombing, toughness, war. And people wonder, could you do that? Could you order airstrikes that would kill innocent children by not the scores, but the hundreds and the thousands? Could you wage war as a commander-in-chief?
DR. BEN CARSON: Well, interestingly enough, you should see the eyes of some of those children when I say to them, "We’re going to have to open your head up and take out this tumor." They’re not happy about it, believe me. And they don’t like me very much at that point. But later on, they love me. Sometimes you—I sound like him. Later—you know, later on, you know, they really realize what’s going on. And by the same token, you have to be able to look at the big picture and understand that it’s actually merciful if you go ahead and finish the job, rather than death by a thousand pricks.
HUGH HEWITT: So you are OK with the deaths of thousands of innocent children and civilian. It’s like—
DR. BEN CARSON: You got it. You got it.
HUGH HEWITT: That is what war—can you be as ruthless as Churchill was in prosecuting the war against the Nazis?
DR. BEN CARSON: "Ruthless" is not necessarily the word I would use, but tough, resolute, understanding what the problems are and understanding that the job of the president of the United States is to protect the people of this country and to do what is necessary in order to get it done.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: That was Ben Carson speaking last night in the debate. Zaid Jilani of The Intercept, you reaction?
ZAID JILANI: You know, I think that there is a sort of perverse, sort of almost bloodsport mentality in these debates, in that they’re talking about terrorism as if you approach it as if you’re trying to tackle an enemy, where you’re going to defeat an army and you’re going to raise a flag, and then it’s going to be over and it’s going to be done. You know, that’s not what terrorism is about. What terrorism is about is the mentality of people, for example, on this Republican stage, who are antagonizing Muslims, who are saying, "Hey, we’ve had—you know, we’ve had 12, 13 years of war in the Middle East. Let’s have some more years of war in the Middle East. Maybe it will work this time." Right? You know, the Obama administration has launched at least 6,000 airstrikes as part of this war. You know, more than a dozen countries are involved in Syria and Iraq. Obviously, military force is not the only solution to this conflict. And yet these folks on this stage are appealing to voters, 60 percent of whom want to actually ban Muslims from the United States, as Donald Trump was, where they’re trying to appeal by just basically saying that the more we kill, the more we harm, the more strength we use, the stronger we are. I mean, let’s be honest about this. ISIS doesn’t have—doesn’t really have an army. They don’t have a navy. Where’s their artillery? Where’s their air force? They have very little actual military force, and they can do very little actual damage to the United States.
I think one of the most remarkable things about this debate was also what was not said. You know, 45,000 people in this country are dying every year because they can’t get healthcare. We have about a quarter of our children—you know, between a third and a quarter of our children in poverty, depending on what part of the country you’re looking at. We have deindustrialization throughout the country. I mean, I went to graduate school in Syracuse, New York. There’s homes there that look like they’re bombed out, but ISIS didn’t do that, right? You know, NAFTA did that, and deindustrialization did that.
And yet all of these questions are being left out of the debate altogether, so we can talk about this really fringe organization in the Middle East that poses almost no threat to the United States. They do pose some threat, but we have more than enough capability to handle them. And instead, they’re talking about building a bigger army, building a bigger military. We actually had a great piece up at The Intercept where we found audio from various defense executives, where they’re actually saying this war is great for their bottom line, where they actually expect rising profits, where they did very well on the budget. And why is that? Why do we need, you know, the most powerful military in the world focusing on a group of a few thousand people with almost no military technology, who are mostly a threat to people in Iraq and Syria—they are a real threat there—but are barely a threat to the United States? We should be handling this with special operations, with intelligence, and primarily with police. And obviously we should not be antagonizing more Muslims and doing things that would kill tremendous numbers of people, because that’s the number one reason Muslims do get drawn to extremist and thuggish groups like ISIS, is that they see their brothers and sisters being killed in these wars, they see their brothers and sisters being killed by allied regime and client regimes of the United States. And we are not going to be winning the hearts and minds by talking about, you know, decapitating children and blowing people’s arms off and legs off and destroying their homes.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, Bob Herbert, this question of Hugh Hewitt, the right-wing talk show radio host, saying, "Would you be willing to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent children?" Now, interesting he said—interestingly, he said, "because that’s what war is."
BOB HERBERT: Right. Well, it should have been an embarrassment to CNN to have one of the moderators asking a question like that, to start with. So he should have been disqualified, just as most of these candidates up there should be disqualified from running for president.
But you make a very good point. People do not understand what war is. War is a horrifying set of circumstances. And most Americans do not know what war is. They think it’s like television or a video game or something like that. And it’s rah-rah. You root for the home team, you know, and let’s go in and kick their butts and come home and wave the flag and declare victory. And it’s not like that at all. I cover all these folks, these American GIs who came back from Iraq and Afghanistan paralyzed and without limbs and horribly burned, with mental problems, post-traumatic stress, and then what happened to their families. And that doesn’t even begin to touch what happened to the folks in the countries, the folks who lived in Iraq and who lived in Afghanistan. And now we just want to go and just, you know, reprise it, let’s do it all over again. It is so preposterous. It’s a shame.
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GOP Debate: Trump Defends Muslim Ban, Other Candidates Debate How to Restrict Rights & Go to War
The nine leading Republican presidential candidates squared off last night in the first debate since Donald Trump shook up the race by proposing to ban Muslims from entering the United States. Much of the debate focused on national security, with several candidates pushing for increasing the size of the U.S. military, escalating the wars in the Middle East and expanding the power of the National Security Agency. "Tens of thousands of people having cellphones with ISIS flags on them? I don’t think so, Wolf. They’re not coming to this country," Trump said. "And if I’m president and if Obama has brought some to this country, they are leaving. They’re going. They’re gone." We speak to Arun Kundnani, author of "The Muslims Are Coming!: Islamophobia, Extremism, and the Domestic War on Terror."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: The nine leading Republican presidential candidates squared off last night in Las Vegas at the Venetian casino, owned by Republican billionaire backer Sheldon Adelson. Adelson and fellow billionaire Donald Trump held a private meeting before the event. It was the first debate since Trump shook up the race by proposing to ban Muslims from entering the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Much of the debate focused on national security, with several candidates pushing for increasing the size of the U.S. military, escalating the wars in the Middle East and expanding the power of the National Security Agency. Prior to the prime-time event, four other Republicans took part in the so-called undercard debate. Senator Lindsey Graham said he wished President George W. Bush was back in the White House.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM: George W. Bush made mistakes, but he did adjust. I blame Obama for ISIL, not Bush. I’m tired of beating on Bush. I miss George W. Bush. I wish he were president right now. We wouldn’t be in this mess.
AMY GOODMAN: During the prime-time debate, some of the tensest moments occurred in exchanges between another Bush—that’s George W. Bush’s brother, Jeb Bush—and Donald Trump. The debate opened when CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked Trump about his proposal to ban Muslims.
WOLF BLITZER: Mr. Trump.
DONALD TRUMP: Yes.
WOLF BLITZER: As you mentioned in your opening statement, part of your strategy is to focus in on America’s borders. To keep the country safe, you say you want to temporarily ban non-American Muslims from coming to the United States, ban refugees fleeing ISIS from coming here, deport 11 million people and wall off America’s southern border. Is the best way to make America great again to isolate it from much of the rest of the world?
DONALD TRUMP: We are not talking about isolation. We’re talking about security. We’re not talking about religion. We’re talking about security. Our country is out of control. People are pouring across the southern border. I will build a wall. It will be a great wall. People will not come in unless they come in legally. Drugs will not pour through that wall. As far as other people, like in the migration, where they’re going, tens of thousands of people having cellphones with ISIS flags on them—I don’t think so, Wolf. They’re not coming to this country. And if I’m president and if Obama has brought some to this country, they are leaving. They’re going. They’re gone.
WOLF BLITZER: Governor Bush, you called Mr. Trump "unhinged" when he proposed banning non-American Muslims from the United States. Why is that unhinged?
JEB BUSH: Well, first of all, we need to destroy ISIS in the caliphate. That’s—that should be our objective. The refugee issue will be solved if we destroy ISIS there, which means we need to have a no-fly zone, safe zones there for refugees, and to build a military force. We need to embed our forces, our troops, inside the Iraqi military. We need to arm directly the Kurds. And all of that has to be done in concert with the Arab nations. And if we’re going to ban all Muslims, how are we going to get them to be part of a coalition to destroy ISIS? The Kurds are the greatest fighting force and our strongest allies. They’re Muslim. Look, this is not a serious proposal. In fact, it will push the Muslim world, the Arab world, away from us at a time when we need to re-engage with them to be able to create a strategy to destroy ISIS. So, Donald, you know, is great at the one-liners. But he’s a chaos candidate. And he’d be a chaos president. He would not be the commander-in-chief we need to keep our country safe.
WOLF BLITZER: Mr. Trump?
DONALD TRUMP: Jeb doesn’t really believe I’m unhinged. He said that very simply because he has failed in this campaign. It’s been a total disaster. Nobody cares. And frankly, I’m the most solid person up here. I built a tremendous company. And all I want to do is make America great again. I don’t want our country to be taken away from us, and that’s what’s happening. The policies that we’ve suffered under other presidents have been a disaster for our country. We want to make America great again. And Jeb, in all fairness, he doesn’t believe that.
JEB BUSH: Look, he mentioned me. I can bring—I can talk to—this is the problem. Banning all Muslims will make it harder for us to do exactly what we need to do, which is to destroy ISIS. We need a strategy. We need to get the lawyers off the back of the war fighters. Right now, under President Obama, we’ve created this standard that is so high that it’s impossible to be successful in fighting ISIS. We need to engage with the Arab world to make this happen. It is not a serious proposal to say that—to the people that you’re asking to—for their support, that they can’t even come to the country to even engage in a dialogue with us? That’s not a serious proposal. We need a serious leader to deal with this. And I believe I’m that guy.
AMY GOODMAN: Joining us now is Arun Kundnani. He is author of The Muslims Are Coming!: Islamophobia, Extremism, and the Domestic War on Terror, adjunct professor at New York University. This was the first debate since Donald Trump had called for a ban on all Muslims coming into the United States. Can you talk about the back-and-forth we saw here and, overall, the response of the Republicans around this issue?
ARUN KUNDNANI: Yeah, well, you know, here’s my summary. Should we be committing war crimes in the Middle East by carpet-bombing civilians, or should we be having dictators bomb civilians in the Middle East on our behalf? Oh, wait. If we do that, and we ban Muslims from coming to the United States, then how are we going to have those dictators come over here and discuss which people we’re going to bomb? So let’s let in some Muslims, but then take away their rights. You know, this is the tone, this is the kind of feel of last night’s debate. It is unprecedented to have this level of hateful rhetoric directed against Muslims. We are back to the kind of full-blown war on terror from 10 years ago. The difference this time is, at least after 9/11 we were responding to what was an exceptional event. The tragedy about San Bernardino is it’s a perfectly normal event, it’s a mass shooting, and those shootings happen every day in America.
AMY GOODMAN: "Normal." Can you explain what you mean?
ARUN KUNDNANI: Well, we have—you know, if we want to see San Bernardino as exceptional, then, you know, we’re basically saying we care more about the 45 people in the United States who have been killed by Muslim terrorists since 9/11 than we do about the 48 who have been killed by right-wing terrorists since 9/11, than we do about the 400,000 who have been killed in gun-related crime since 9/11 in the United States. Right? That number is the size of a small country. But we choose specifically to focus on this one issue of Muslim terrorism, and that is our only idea of violence that we think about.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And did you see in any of the nine candidates up there any more sane approach among them or distinguishing one from another?
ARUN KUNDNANI: I mean, yeah, as I say, the variations between them are the different ways in which we might abuse people’s rights and go to war. There’s no one who’s really taking a principled stand. And unfortunately, this is true not just of the Republicans, actually, but across the political establishment. I mean, we have not seen anyone, actually, in mainstream politics say the objection to Trump is straightforwardly because he is making racist statements, and we know the history of this country, and we know where that leads. No one has said that. What people have been saying is pragmatic arguments: We should not say this stuff out loud, because otherwise people in the Middle East might turn into terrorists and come and bomb us—which, of course, feeds his exact narrative that Muslims are these kind of scary people on the verge of becoming terrorists.
AMY GOODMAN: CNN moderator Wolf Blitzer asked Dr. Ben Carson about his proposal to monitor, quote, "anti-America sentiment."
DR. BEN CARSON: As far as monitoring is concerned, what my point is, we need to make sure that any place—I don’t care whether it’s a mosque, a school, a supermarket, you know, a theater—it doesn’t matter. If there are a lot of people getting there, engaging in radicalizing activities, then we need to be suspicious of it. We have to get rid of all this PC stuff, and people are worried about somebody’s going to say that I’m Islamophobic or what have you. This is craziness, because we are at war. That’s why I ask Congress, go ahead and declare the war.
AMY GOODMAN: Arun Kundnani, Dr. Ben Carson’s comment?
ARUN KUNDNANI: Yeah, what Carson, Cruz, Trump are all doing is making explicit in their rhetoric what is already implicit in policy terms, right? So we already have a situation where, you know, every mosque in New York City has been under surveillance simply for being a mosque. We already deported thousands of people from the United States simply because they’re Muslim. We already have over a million people on terrorism watchlists, right? So, these kind of statements are—actually, what they’re doing is that they’re putting out in the open stuff that I think the people who see themselves as more mainstream would rather just keep quiet. And, you know, I think that the objection from people like Hillary Clinton to what Trump and Cruz and Carson are saying is, you know, of course we have a Muslim problem, but let’s just do this a little bit more quietly rather than making it so obvious. That’s his real sin, is to speak out.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break and then come back to our discussion. Arun Kundnani is the author of The Muslims Are Coming!: Islamophobia, Extremism, and the Domestic War on Terror. He’s an adjunct professor at NYU. And we’ll be joined by others in our roundtable discussion, as we bring you more clips from the Republican presidential debate, held at Sheldon Adelson’s casino last night in Las Vegas. Stay with us.
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Democracy Is Being Dismantled Before Our Eyes: Bob Herbert on Sheldon Adelson-Backed GOP Debate
Tuesday’s debate was held in Las Vegas at the Venetian casino, owned by Republican billionaire backer Sheldon Adelson. Adelson and fellow billionaire Donald Trump held a private meeting before the event. We speak to former New York Times columnist Bob Herbert, distinguished senior fellow with Demos, on the state of the Republican race.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to read the first paragraph of a piece by Ed Kilgore in New York magazine. He writes, "If the Republican presidential contest was an act of dramatic fiction rather than a lurid [and] sometimes horrifying reality show, tonight’s candidate debate at the Venetian in Las Vegas would end with the proprietor of that gilded palace of sin, Sheldon Adelson, coming onstage to name a victor, who would be awarded with a personal endorsement and a super-pac check for $500 million. Why mess with snap polls and focus groups when a real player in the process can put his money where his mouth is?"
Well, to talk more about Tuesday’s debate, we’re going to bring others into our discussion right now. Bob Herbert is a distinguished senior fellow with Demos. From ’93 to [ 2011 ], he was op-ed columnist for The New York Times. Also with us is Zaid Jilani, staff reporter at The Intercept. His new piece is called "Ted Cruz Under Attack in Iowa for Bucking Ethanol Lobby." And still with us, Arun Kundnani, author of The Muslims Are Coming!: Islamophobia, Extremism, and the Domestic War on Terror, adjunct professor at New York University.
Bob Herbert, the gilded palace where these two debates took place last night, Sheldon Adelson’s casino, with a little private meeting between the billionaires right before—that was Donald Trump and Sheldon Adelson.
BOB HERBERT: Right. So we’re watching our democracy being dismantled right before our very eyes. This has been going on for a long time. So, this was a Sheldon Adelson-CNN debate. It wasn’t just a CNN-sponsored debate. You have the leading Republican candidate is a billionaire, Donald Trump; all the Republican candidates willing to genuflect before Sheldon Adelson, you know. And I just think that it’s—someone—in the press, in the media and in the public—needs to wake up to this. What are we debating? We’re debating how we can erode our democracy further; how we can give up our civil liberties and our civil rights; how we can prevent people, on the basis of their religion, from even entering the country, certainly from participating in our daily lives and that sort of thing. We’ve seen—I know we’re not talking about the economy, but all of this is together—we’ve seen what’s happened in the way that the economy has been hijacked to be in the services of the very wealthy. And I think it’s potentially catastrophic. I mean, we are losing the United States as we had come to know it or as we were taught growing up in civics lessons and history books were the things that made the United States special.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Bob, I wanted to ask you about the role of the media—specifically, in this case, CNN—in framing the discussion, because I was stunned—
BOB HERBERT: So was I.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: —that over an hour was spent just discussing ISIS and what—it was almost as if CNN had decided that fear and the fight against terrorism was now the main discussion that had to occur, because, for instance, in discussing foreign policy, there was no mention of Israel and Palestine—
BOB HERBERT: No.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: —no discussion of Latin America—
BOB HERBERT: No.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: —or President Obama’s decision to normalize relations with Cuba. There was even scant discussion of the situation with Russia and the Ukraine. It was all focused on the Middle East and on ISIS, it seemed.
BOB HERBERT: It was all about ISIS and terror and fear, and the subtext—I don’t even think it’s a subtext; I mean, it’s right out there—and fear of Muslims. So, I thought it was crazy. And not only was the entire—almost the entire debate focused on ISIS, I thought they didn’t do even a good job of interviewing the candidates about ISIS. So you didn’t have follow-up questions to try—the whole thing was incoherent, so you didn’t have follow-up questions to try and pin these fellows down. So you have these candidates up there: "Well, I’m going to destroy ISIS. If I’m president, I’m going to destroy ISIS, and Americans are not going to have to be afraid anymore." OK, how are you going to do that? Are you going to wage a serious war against ISIS? Are you going to build up the American military and invade the Middle East again? And by the way, how are we going to pay for it, because are we going to have tax cuts at the same time that we’re conducting a war, like we did the last time with disastrous results? We didn’t get any kind of follow-up questions last night from these interviewers.
And then, one thing that was like astounding to me: Trump is the leading GOP contender at this point; he doesn’t even know what the nuclear triad is. This is the guy that’s going to be our commander-in-chief. So when he flubbed that question and made it clear that he didn’t know what the questioner was talking about, was there some kind of follow-up to spotlight for the American people that the fellow that claims to be the strongest on foreign policy and warfare and fighting terror doesn’t even understand what America’s nuclear capabilities are?
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Trump Calls for Closing Parts of Internet as Cruz & Rubio Debate NSA Powers
In one of the more heated moments in Tuesday’s debate, Senators Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio clashed over the National Security Agency’s bulk metadata collection. Donald Trump called for closing parts of the Internet to fight the self-proclaimed Islamic State. "You talk freedom of speech. You talk freedom of anything you want. I don’t want them using our Internet," Trump said.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to go to another subject that came up in the debate. During the debate, Senators Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio clashed over the government’s bulk collection of metadata.
DANA BASH: Senator Cruz, you voted for a bill that President Obama signed into law just this past June, that made it harder for the government to access Americans’ phone records. In light of the San Bernardino attack, was your vote a mistake?
SEN. TED CRUZ: Well, Dana, the premise of your question is not accurate. I’m very proud to have joined with conservatives in both the Senate and the House to reform how we target bad guys. And what the USA FREEDOM Act did is it did two things. Number one, it ended the federal government’s bulk collection of phone metadata of millions of law-abiding citizens. But number two, and the second half of it that is critical, it strengthened the tools of national security and law enforcement to go after terrorists. It gave us greater tools, and we are seeing those tools work right now in San Bernardino. ...
SEN. RAND PAUL: Dana, may I interject here?
DANA BASH: Senator—Senator—Senator Rubio, please respond.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO: Let me be very careful when answering this, because I don’t think national television, in front of 15 million people, is the place to discuss classified information. So let me just be very clear. There is nothing that we are allowed to do under this bill that we could not do before. This bill did, however, take away a valuable tool that allowed the National Security Agency and other law—and other intelligence agencies to quickly and rapidly access phone records and match them up with other phone records to see who terrorists have been calling. Because I promise you, the next time there is attack on—an attack on this country, the first thing people are going to want to know is: Why didn’t we know about it, and why didn’t we stop it? And the answer better not be because we didn’t have access to records or information that would have allowed us to identify these killers before they attacked.
SEN. RAND PAUL: Dana, this is a—this is a—
DANA BASH: Senator—Senator Paul—Senator Paul, I know this is—this has been a very big issue for you. You hear many of your colleagues are calling for increased surveillance by law enforcement. You call that hogwash. Why is that hogwash?
SEN. RAND PAUL: You know, I think Marco gets it completely wrong here. We are not any safer through the bulk collection of all Americans’ records. In fact, I think we’re less safe. We get so distracted by all of the information, we’re not spending enough time getting specific immigration—specific information on terrorists.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: That last speaker was Senator Rand Paul. In the debate, Donald Trump also defended his call for closing parts of the Internet to fight ISIS.
DONALD TRUMP: You talk freedom of speech, you talk freedom of anything you want. I don’t want them using our Internet to take our young, impressionable youth—and watching the media talking about how they’re masterminds, these are masterminds. They shouldn’t be using the word "mastermind." These are thugs. These are terrible people in ISIS, not masterminds. And we have to change it from every standpoint. But we should be using our brilliant people, our most brilliant minds, to figure a way that ISIS cannot use the Internet. And then, on second, we should be able to penetrate the Internet and find out exactly where ISIS is and everything about ISIS. And we can do that if we use our good people.
WOLF BLITZER: Let me follow up, Mr. Trump. So, are you open to closing parts of the Internet?
DONALD TRUMP: I would certainly be open to closing areas where we are at war with somebody. I sure as hell don’t want to let people that want to kill us and kill our nation use our Internet. Yes, sir, I am.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Zaid Jilani of The Intercept has written a lot about the issue of surveillance. This debate on surveillance and on controlling "our Internet"?
ZAID JILANI: No, I mean, it’s a bizarre debate. You know, when Trump says he wants to close parts of the Internet, you know, when people are fighting with us, I mean, is he saying to take Iraq and Syria off the Internet? I mean, that’s crazy. I mean, that’s actually what Assad—Assad did that in Syria during the start of the revolution, is he actually knocked off parts of the country from the Internet. And, you know, I actually met a man who was involved in the revolution. They used a little USB dongle, and that we used to put them on donkeys and send them to the next town, right? I mean, is that what—is that what Trump wants to be doing here in the United States? And it’s also interesting, just the idea of knocking people off the Internet. You know, our intelligence agencies actually like to have access to people’s social media accounts and to—and to people putting out broadcasts, so they can actually—can track people who may be, you know, doing us harm. So I don’t think that just sort of walling off the Internet to certain parts of the world is necessarily going to solve much at all.
And I think that it also goes back to the debate about surveillance. I mean, there’s no evidence that the bulk collection of data would have stopped the San Bernardino attack. I mean, it’s entirely speculative. And even in cases where we do have sort of a paper trail—like, for example, Dylann Roof, laid out a detailed manifesto about what he was doing. We had plenty of public information about, you know, the weapons he had and such things, and yet we didn’t use that information to intercept him in any way or to surveil him in any way. So I think, actually, there is a danger in collecting too much information, and I think, actually, that’s what Paul was getting to.
AMY GOODMAN: And even in the case of San Bernardino, I mean, isn’t it the fact that the woman who was involved with this attack was just actually openly on social media talking about violent jihad? This didn’t take going deeply into some, you know, private part or encrypted parts of communication.
ZAID JILANI: Exactly. And, I mean, there’s been this huge attack on encryption following the Paris attacks, and yet we don’t have any evidence that they were using encryption. I mean, they were using unencrypted data to move this stuff around. So, you know, a lot of the times it’s not necessarily about, you know, we have to get tougher, we have to get more intrusive, we have to take away more of our liberties. It’s more about like, hey, we have the police, we have the tools, we need to go to them and say, "Hey, what are you doing here? Maybe are you just collecting too much information to where you can’t sift it sufficiently?" And that’s a real threat, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Arun Kundnani, would you like to weigh in on this?
ARUN KUNDNANI: Yeah, I mean, I think this is—there’s two moments where someone said something I think is correct. One was Rand Paul actually saying, you know, the problem that we have with surveillance is we’re just collecting so much information that we can’t analyze it properly. I mean, most actual incidents of terrorism, that’s been the issue. The person was known, information was in the system, but it couldn’t be assessed. So, you know, I think the idea that we just need to suck up more and more data is completely misconceived.
And the other aspect here is, you know, if you look at those posts that Tashfeen Malik made in the San Bernardino case, they weren’t in English. So you’re talking about recruiting huge numbers of translators, if you want to do this mass processing of data.
AMY GOODMAN: She wrote in Urdu.
ARUN KUNDNANI: Right, right. And so, we would need to have an army of Urdu translators, if we’re going to—if we’re going to look at every social media profile of everyone applying for a visa. So, who’s going to vet the translators that we’re going to recruit? Right? We don’t have the translators to translate their social media posts. We get sucked into craziness when we start thinking like this.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And you’ve mentioned—you’ve written about the level of—the ratio of surveillance agents here in the United States that’s comparable to East Germany before the fall of communism.
ARUN KUNDNANI: Yeah, that’s right. So, you know, if you look at the number of agents in different intelligence agencies within the United States looking at the domestic situation, we have such a huge number now working there in those kinds of agencies. But if you look at the ratio to the number of Muslims in the United States that are subject to that surveillance, the ratio looks roughly the same as what the East German population was facing under the Stasi. So, you know, roughly for every Muslim in the United States, I think, if I remember right, it’s about 70 or 80 intelligence agents who are spying on them—same ratio that Stasi had. And, of course, the lesson here is that that level of surveillance doesn’t tell you what you think it tells you, because, after all, the Stasi didn’t anticipate their own downfall.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break, then come back to this discussion. We’re talking about the Republican presidential debate that was held last night in Sheldon Adelson’s casino in Las Vegas. Our guests are Zaid Jilani of The Intercept; Arun Kundnani, author of The Muslims Are Coming!, he teaches at New York University; and Bob Herbert of Demos. Stay with us.
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Stephen Zunes: No Candidates Are Looking at Root Cause of ISIL, "This Monster We Created"
As Republican candidates vowed to expand the wars in the Middle East, professor Stephen Zunes looks at how most of the candidates ignored how the U.S. invasion of Iraq helped create what became the self-proclaimed Islamic State. "There was a testosterone display put on by men who clearly have little knowledge of the Middle East and the origins of extremism," Zunes said of the debate.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Candidates Donald Trump and Jeb Bush clashed over foreign policy after a Facebook viewer asked Trump about his plan to kill family members of ISIS.
JOSH JACOB: I’m Josh Jacob from Georgia Tech. Recently, Donald Trump mentioned that we must kill the families of ISIS members. However, this violates the principle of distinction between civilians and combatants in international law. So my question is: How would intentionally killing innocent civilians set us apart from ISIS?
WOLF BLITZER: Mr. Trump?
DONALD TRUMP: We have to be much tougher. We have to be much stronger than we’ve been. We have people that know what’s going on. You take a look at just the attack in California the other day. There were numerous people, including the mother, that knew what was going on. They saw a pipe bomb sitting all over the floor. They saw ammunition all over the place. They knew exactly what was going on. When you had the World Trade Center go, people were put into planes that were friends, family, girlfriends, and they were put into planes, and they were sent back, for the most part, to Saudi Arabia. They knew what was going on. They went home, and they wanted to watch their boyfriends on television. I would be very, very firm with families. And frankly, that will make people think, because they may not care much about their lives, but they do care, believe it or not, about their families’ lives.
JEB BUSH: Donald, this is not—this is—
WOLF BLITZER: Governor Bush? Governor Bush?
JEB BUSH: This is another example of the lack of seriousness. Look, this is—this is troubling, because we’re at war. They’ve declared war on us, and we need to have a serious strategy to destroy ISIS. But the idea that that is a solution to this is just—it’s just crazy. It makes no sense to suggest this. Look, two months ago, Donald Trump said that ISIS was not our fight—just two months ago. He said—
DONALD TRUMP: Never said that.
JEB BUSH: —that Hillary Clinton would be a great negotiator with Iran. And he gets his foreign policy experience from the shows.
DONALD TRUMP: Oh, come on. Give me [inaudible].
JEB BUSH: That is not a serious kind of candidate. We need someone that thinks this through, that can lead our country to safety and security.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Jeb Bush and Donald Trump sparring last night in the Republican presidential debate in Las Vegas. We’re also joined by Stephen Zunes, professor of politics and international studies at the University of San Francisco, where he chairs the program in Middle Eastern Studies. Your response to what you watched last night, not only the clip that we just played, Professor Zunes?
STEPHEN ZUNES: I mean, there was this testosterone display put on by men who clearly had little knowledge of the Middle East or the origins of extremism. We kept hearing President Obama referred to as a "weakling," and they promised to be strong and tough. Even on a question about domestic terrorism like San Bernardino, a question about internal security, even the so-called moderate John Kasich immediately started saying, "We need to send more troops. The recently concluded Paris summit should have been about ISIS, not about climate change." You know, there are about, what, 20,000 ISIS fighters, and the United States already spends like $800 billion on the military annually, nearly half the world’s total. And we say that’s—we can’t defeat ISIS, because that’s not enough money.
And the irony here is that President Obama, when he was a state senator in Illinois, at an antiwar rally in October 2002, said that Iraq was not a threat. He warned that an invasion would fan the flames in the Middle East. It would bring out the worst, rather than the best, of the Arab world. It would be a recruitment arm for Islamist extremists. And yet, the very people who supported that war are now saying it’s his fault, you know, that somehow that—and this is what’s really, really—it’s a reckless militarism that got us into this mess. And what we’re hearing is just we need to have more of the same.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Stephen Zunes, I’d like to ask you about that. Repeatedly, this whole—several of the candidates kept saying that the United States was weak, that the world no longer respects the United States, and that that has to change.
STEPHEN ZUNES: I mean, President Obama has bombed seven Muslim countries since coming to office. And, you know, the withdrawal from Iraq was—he tried to extend the U.S. troops’ presence there, but President Bush had signed an agreement, while he was still in office, that required the U.S. to pull out. If we’d stay, we would have been an occupying army again, and the Iraqi government would have had every legal right to attack us. Yeah, this is quite extraordinary how they are twisting history.
And one of the ironies is that—you know, the best argument, of course, to this nonsense—I mean, there’s a lot of arguments one can make against it, but the most important argument is we never should have invaded Iraq in the first place, because ISIS is a direct outgrowth of that invasion. Almost the entire political leadership and the military leadership of ISIS is Iraqi. A recent survey by that Oxford University professor that was published recently in The Nation talked about how, in interviewing ISIS recruiters, they are almost all motivated not by Islam, but out of bitterness at the U.S. occupation and its aftermath.
And the best response that the Democrats can have is we should have never invaded Iraq in the first place. Unfortunately, if Hillary Clinton is the nominee, she can’t say that, because she was one of the right-wing minority of Democrats that did support Bush on this one. So, what scares me about the—not just the Republican debate, but the fact that Hillary Clinton is the front-runner, is that no one is looking at the root cause of this monster we created, ISIS, and all we’re hearing is this hypermilitarism and—that is the very root of the terror that the people of particularly Iraq and Syria are facing, but, as we’ve seen, Western nations, including the United States, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go back to Donald Trump last night at the Venetian casino.
DONALD TRUMP: Look, we need a toughness. We need strength. We’re not respected as a—you know, as a nation anymore. We don’t have that level of respect that we need. And if we don’t get it back fast, we’re just going to go weaker, weaker, and just disintegrate. We can’t allow that to happen. We need strength. We don’t have it. When Jeb comes out, and he talks about the border—and I saw it, and I was witness to it, and so was everyone else, and I was standing there—they come across as an act of love. He’s saying the same thing right now with radical Islam. And we can’t have that in our country. It just won’t work. We need strength.
WOLF BLITZER: Governor Bush?
JEB BUSH: Donald, you’re not going to be able to insult your way to the presidency. That’s not going to happen. And I do have the strength. Leadership—leadership is not—leadership is not about attacking people and disparaging people. Leadership is about creating a serious strategy to deal with the threat of our time. And I laid out that strategy before the attacks in Paris and before the attacks in San Bernardino. And it is the way that—the way forward. We need to increase our military spending. We need to deal with a no-fly zone in Syria, a safe zone. We need to focus on building a military that is second to none—
WOLF BLITZER: Thank you.
JEB BUSH: —so that we can destroy Islamic terrorism.
DONALD TRUMP: With Jeb’s attitude, we will never be great again. That I can tell you.
AMY GOODMAN: Donald Trump saying, "We will never be great again," as he spars with Jeb Bush. Stephen Zunes?
STEPHEN ZUNES: Yeah, this is the part that is particularly mind-boggling. It’s basically about empire, this idea that the United States, you know, can—with just enough firepower, if we kill enough civilians, if we send in enough troops, that somehow we can shape the world the way we want to. It is an—it’s always been a really simplistic view, but particularly now, when you have this network of nonstate actors. I mean, even when it comes to nonviolent resistance, we had that ridiculous line—I can’t remember which candidate. I think it was Cruz, you know, who said that Obama toppled Mubarak, that somehow we could have prevented the millions of Egyptians from taking to the streets in their demand for democracy. The United States is not omnipotent. And indeed, when we try to—we have this hubris to think that we can shape the world, that’s when we get blowback. I mean, I’ve been traveling to the Middle East for, you know, 45 years now, and the more the United States has militarized the region, the less secure we’ve become. You know, I used to—Americans used to be able to travel throughout the region without fear, and now it really is becoming a dangerous place.
AMY GOODMAN: One issue—one issue not addressed in Tuesday’s debate was climate change. Ohio Governor John Kasich held the distinction of being the only candidate to even say the word "climate."
GOV. JOHN KASICH: First and foremost, we need to go and destroy ISIS, and we need to do this with our Arab friends and our friends in Europe. And when I see they have a climate conference over in Paris, they should have been talking about destroying ISIS, because they are involved in virtually every country, you know, across this world.
AMY GOODMAN: It really was astounding. You know, Democracy Now! just returned from Paris, where we covered the U.N. climate summit for two weeks. It was the largest gathering of world leaders in the history of the world. Zaid Jilani?
ZAID JILANI: You know, it’s remarkable. We have so much hysteria about, by the way, Syrian refugees. I was part of welcoming ceremony this past weekend in Georgia—I invited Ted Cruz, the senator—of refugees—to come meet with some. But it’s remarkable. They had so much hysteria about 4 million refugees. If we don’t solve climate change, we’re talking 40 million, we’re talking 100 million refugees.
AMY GOODMAN: And the Pentagon knows it well, right? They’ve been doing reports on it. Well, you know, the person who gained the most Twitter followers last night during this Republican presidential debate: Bernie Sanders. I want to play a clip right now of Killer Mike, a well-known hip-hop artist, introducing Bernie Sanders in Atlanta.
KILLER MIKE: I have to tell you that in my heart of hearts, in my heart of hearts, I truly believe that Senator Bernie Sanders is the right man to lead this country. And I believe it because he—I believe it because he, unlike any other candidate, said, "I would like to restore the Voting Rights Act." He, unlike any other candidate, said, "I wish to end this illegal war on drugs that disproportionately targets minorities and poor." Unlike any other candidate in my life, he says that education should be free for every citizen of this country.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s hip-hop artist Killer Mike introducing Bernie Sanders. They spent a lot of time together in Atlanta, and Killer Mike just posted this, I think, hour-long barber shop interview, because he owns a barber shop, in Atlanta with Bernie Sanders. But the significance of this, Bob Herbert? And think it’s starting a trend with hip-hop artists endorsing Bernie Sanders. A poll just showed—what was it? ABC [World News Tonight], a major newscast, has devoted something like 81 minutes to Donald Trump compared to—is it 20 seconds, less than a minute, to Bernie Sanders?
BOB HERBERT: Isn’t that something? So, we’re now at the stage where, after all these years that I’ve been in the media, I have to get my perspective from hip-hop artists. I can’t get it from the mainstream media. The hip-hop artists are making far more sense. You know, I have not tended to beat up on the press or the media. You know, people use it as a whipping boy all the time, and I just don’t. That’s where we get our information from, and it’s crucial to democracy. But I think that its coverage of this presidential campaign has been really horrible. And so, you know, last night the debate focused almost entirely—
AMY GOODMAN: We have 10 seconds.
BOB HERBERT: —on ISIS. And, you know, all the focus has been on Donald Trump. And Trump is now leading because he’s the most famous person in this celebrity-obsessed country. It’s crazy.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all for being with us, Zaid Jilani of The Intercept, Arun Kundnani of NYU and the book The Muslims Are Coming!, Stephen Zunes at the University of San Francisco; and Bob Herbert of Demos.
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Juan González: GOP to Puerto Rico–"Drop Dead"
On Tuesday, top Republicans in the Senate rejected a move by congressional Democrats to extend bankruptcy protection laws to Puerto Rico. This means Puerto Rico is now just two weeks away from the biggest municipal bond default in U.S. history. We get analysis from Democracy Now! co-host Juan González.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Before we get to the Republican presidential debate, Juan, talk about what happened in Congress yesterday around Puerto Rico.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, well, I had a column in today’s Daily News about the deal that was reached on spending by the Congress. And it did not include an extension of bankruptcy protection laws to Puerto Rico. The island is suffering under a $72 billion deficit and is facing a $1 billion debt payment due in two weeks, on January 1st. And the governor of Puerto Rico, the White House, leaders in Congress were trying to get the Congress to agree to extend bankruptcy protection to allow an orderly restructuring of these debts. There were meetings all late Monday night and then into yesterday afternoon between three leading Republicans—Chuck Grassley, also Orrin Hatch and Lisa Murkowski—all heads of committees that have to deal with Puerto Rico in one way or another, and also Chuck Schumer and Maria Cantwell. But they couldn’t reach an agreement. It broke down around noon yesterday, and—because Grassley was insisting that he did not want to extend bankruptcy protections to Puerto Rico.
The result right now is that there’s going to be a default in two weeks of the government of Puerto Rico. It’s going to roil the entire municipal bond market of the United States. And as I said in my column, maybe the governor of Puerto Rico should now do the only thing that he—the only weapon that he’s got left, which is just say, "I’m not going to pay the debt," and let Wall Street deal with the consequences starting January 1. But we’ll see what happens now in the next two weeks.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I encourage people to see your speech that we played on Thanksgiving—you can go to democracynow.org—on Puerto Rico’s debt crisis. And of course we’ll continue to follow this.
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Fifth Republican Debate Focuses on Expanding Military, Wars
The nine leading Republican presidential candidates squared off last night in Las Vegas at the Venetian casino, owned by Republican billionaire backer Sheldon Adelson. It was the first debate since Donald Trump shook up the race by proposing to ban Muslims from entering the United States. Trump has gained an all-time high in a recent national poll. As he criticized the cost of wars in the Middle East Tuesday night, Trump was interrupted by protester Kai Newkirk, who decried billionaire politicians.
Donald Trump: "In my opinion"—
Kai Newkirk: "The American people deserve free and fair elections, not billionaire auctions."
Wolf Blitzer: "Go ahead, Mr. Trump."
Donald Trump: "In my opinion, we’ve spent $4 trillion trying to topple various people that, frankly, if they were there and if we could have spent that $4 trillion in the United States to fix our roads, our bridges and all of the other problems, our airports and all of the other problems we have, we would have been a lot better off. I can tell you that right now."
Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush, who has been trailing in the polls, took aim at Donald Trump’s positions, including his proposal to ban Muslims immigrants.
Jeb Bush: "Look, this is not a serious proposal. In fact, it will push the Muslim world, the Arab world, away from us at a time when we need to re-engage with them to be able to create a strategy to destroy ISIS. So, Donald, you know, is great at the one-liners. But he’s a chaos candidate. And he’d be a chaos president. He would not be the commander-in-chief we need to keep our country safe."
Much of the debate focused on national security, with candidates pushing for increasing the size of the U.S. military, escalating the wars in the Middle East and expanding the power of the National Security Agency. We’ll talk more about last night’s debate after headlines.
Kerry: U.S. Not Seeking Regime Change in Syria
Secretary of State John Kerry says the United States is not seeking the ouster of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Speaking in Moscow following talks with Russian leaders, Kerry backed the Russian demand that it be left to the Syrian people to determine if Assad remains in power.
Secretary of State John Kerry: "The United States and our partners are not seeking so-called regime change, as it is known, in Syria. What we have said is that we don’t believe that Assad himself has the ability to be able to lead the future Syria. But we didn’t—you know, we focused today not on our differences about what can or can’t be done immediately about Assad. We focused on a process."
Report: U.S. Overlooked Torture, Killings by Iraq-Backed Militias
Defense Secretary Ash Carter is in Iraq for talks on the U.S.-led campaign against the self-proclaimed Islamic State. His trip comes amid revelations the United States has overlooked killings and torture by Shiite militias sponsored by the Iraqi government. Reuters reports both Iraq and the U.S. military launched investigations following the discovery in 2005 of a secret Baghdad prison where 168 prisoners were found in horrific conditions. Neither report was ever published. The U.S. report, obtained by Reuters, found evidence of extrajudicial killings and torture, and implicated top Iraqi officials who remain in positions of power.
Los Angeles Schools Reopen After Threat
Los Angeles schools have reopened today after the country’s second-largest school system was shuttered Tuesday following a violent threat. While New York City received a nearly identifical threat, authorities here declared it a hoax, while Los Angeles officials kept the district’s 640,000 students at home. The emailed threats mentioned guns, explosives and nerve gas, and were routed through a server in Germany. Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti confirmed Tuesday the threats were not credible.
Mayor Eric Garcetti: "We can now announce the FBI has determined this is not a credible threat—something we couldn’t have announced earlier in the day. And I want to be very careful, because that does not mean that it’s conclusively one thing or another yet. Some have used words that I think are probably inappropriate, like 'hoax' and other things. Whether it’s criminal mischief, whether it’s somebody testing vulnerabilities of multiple cities, we still do not know enough to say definitively. What we do know is that it will be safe for our children to return to school tomorrow."
Hundreds of Greeks Protest Latest Bailout Reforms
Greek lawmakers have approved a new reform measure demanded by international lenders in exchange for the next batch of bailout funds. Outside the Parliament, hundreds rallied against austerity measures and vowed to continue fighting the bailout terms accepted by Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras. Communist Party leader Dimitris Koutsoumpas was among those to protest.
Dimitris Koutsoumpas: "This bill of prior actions that is being fast-tracked in Parliament, but also the austerity measures that are coming soon, show us that there is only one road for the workers’ movement: a long, continuous battle to fight against this system, against these measures that are bad for the people."
Jury Deadlocks in Trial of Officer for Freddie Gray Killing
In Baltimore, Maryland, the jury in the case of William Porter, the first of six officers to face trial over the death of Freddie Gray, has deadlocked. After deliberating for 10 hours, jurors told the judge Tuesday they had failed to reach a unanimous decision. They are set to continue deliberations today after the judge told them to keep going. Porter, one of three African-American officers charged in the case, is accused of failing to summon medical help when Freddie Gray requested it and failing to secure Gray’s seat belt. Porter faces up to 10 years in prison. Freddie Gray’s family attorney has said his spine was 80 percent severed at the neck when he died in police custody, sparking an uprising in Baltimore over police treatment of African Americans.
Israeli Forces Kill 2 Palestinians in Refugee Camp
Israeli forces have shot dead two Palestinians during a raid on the Qalandiya refugee camp in the occupied West Bank. Israeli authorities said the two young men attempted to ram vehicles into Israeli forces. Since the beginning of October, Israeli forces have killed about 120 Palestinians. Around 20 Israelis and one U.S. citizen have been killed over the same time period in Palestinian attacks.
House Reaches Deal on Spending Bill, Corporate Tax Breaks
House Speaker Paul Ryan has announced a deal on a $1.1 trillion spending bill and a package of massive tax breaks Democrats say will unfairly benefit corporations. The deal would lift the 40-year ban on crude oil exports from the United States, extend tax breaks for wind and solar energy and delay portions of Obama’s signature healthcare law. Privacy advocates have objected to the inclusion of a controversial cybersecurity measure they say will quietly expand mass surveillance by allowing corporations to share sensitive user data with law enforcement agencies. The House is expected to hold separate votes on the tax and spending portions of the deal by the end of the week.
Report: U.S. Executions Drop to Lowest Level Since 1991
A new report shows executions in the United States have dropped to their lowest level in nearly 25 years. Of the 28 executions carried out in 2015, 13 took place in Texas, six in Missouri and five in Georgia. The Death Penalty Information Center says a total of 49 new death sentences were imposed this year, the lowest number since the early 1970s when the Supreme Court blocked executions. The report comes amid declining public support for the death penalty, halts on executions in a number of states and a shortage of execution drugs following objections from European pharmaceutical companies.
Flint Mayor Declares State of Emergency over Lead in Water
The mayor of Flint, Michigan, has declared a state of emergency over lead in the city’s drinking water. Last year, the city switched its water source from the Detroit system to the Flint River. Despite switching back in October, Mayor Karen Weaver said lead levels remain higher than the federal threshold in many homes. A study released in September found the proportion of children under five with elevated lead levels in their blood nearly doubled following the switch. Weaver, who just became Flint’s first woman mayor, made the announcement Monday night.
SC Lawmaker Floats "Invasive" Viagra Bill to Protest Abortion Curbs
A South Carolina state lawmaker has pre-filed a bill restricting access to Viagra and other erectile dysfunction medications for men in order to make a point about increasing restrictions on women’s reproductive rights. The bill requires men seeking Viagra to undergo a 24-hour waiting period, submit a notarized affidavit from a sexual partner, be examined by a state-licensed sexual therapist and attend outpatient counseling sessions. South Carolina State Representative Mia McLeod said she made the bill as complex as possible—in order to prove a point about restrictions on abortion.
Rep. Mia McLeod: "I purposely tried to make it as invasive, as intrusive, as hypocritical and unnecessary as possible, to make the point."
Similar attempts to restrict Viagra access in Ohio and other states have so far been unsuccessful.
U.N. Experts Disturbed by Treatment of Women in United States
And a group of United Nations experts has concluded the United States has failed to uphold gender equality. Following a visit to the United States, the three human rights experts from Poland, the United Kingdom and Costa Rica said they were "appalled by the over-incarceration of women, mostly for non-violent crimes." They criticized the "deeply disturbing" condition of migrant women in detention centers, and said they were shocked by the lack of accommodation for pregnant women in the workplace. According to The Huffington Post, the women told reporters the most telling moment of the trip was their visit to an abortion clinic in Alabama, where they faced harassment from anti-choice protesters. "It was a kind of terrorism," the delegate from Poland said.
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Pt. 2: Black Women at the Intersection: Holtzclaw Case Links #BlackLivesMatter & Anti-Rape Struggles
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Jane Goodall at COP21: "I'm Here to Save the Rainforests" from Intensive Farming, Corruption
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