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"Kill Anything": Israeli Soldiers Say Gaza Atrocities Came from Orders for Indiscriminate Fire
A new report based on testimonies of Israeli soldiers concludes the massive civilian death toll from last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza resulted from a policy of indiscriminate fire. The Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence released testimonies of more than 60 Israeli officers and soldiers which it says illustrate a "broad ethical failure" that "comes from the top of the chain of command." More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority civilians. On Israel’s side, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. During the 50-day operation, more than 20,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed, and hundreds of thousands of people are still displaced. We hear candid video testimonies from the soldiers and speak to former Israeli paratrooper Avner Gvaryahu, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We begin today’s show with a new report based on testimonies of Israeli soldiers that concludes the massive civilian death toll from last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza resulted from a "policy of indiscriminate fire." The Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence released testimonies of more than 60 Israeli officers and soldiers, which it says illustrate a, quote, "broad ethical failure" that "comes from the top of the chain of command." More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority of them civilians. On Israel’s side, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. During the 50-day operation, more than 20,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed, and hundreds of thousands of people are still displaced.
AMY GOODMAN: In a video made by Breaking the Silence, a first sergeant in the Israeli military, his voice distorted, describes how a commander told him, "There are no innocent civilians," and to assume anyone within 200 or 400 meters of the Israeli Defense Forces was an enemy. ’
IDF FIRST SERGEANT: [translated] The commander announced, "Folks, tomorrow we enter. I want you to be determined, task-oriented and confident. The entire nation is behind you"—the usual speeches. And then he spoke about the rules of engagement. And I quote: "The rules of engagement are: Any person at a distance that could put you at risk, you kill him with no need for clearance." Meaning, anyone at a distance of 200, 300, 400 meters from us, isn’t an ordinary civilian. According to IDF logic, he must be there for a reason, because an ordinary civilian would flee the area, and so, we must kill him with no need for clearance. For me, it was just spine-tingling. I said to him, "Let me get this straight. Any person I see in the neighborhood where we’re headed, I spot him and kill him?" He said, "Yes. Any sane person who sees a tank battalion in his neighborhood will run away. If he sticks around, then he’s up to something. And if he’s up to something, it’s against you. So shoot him." So I tried to dig a little deeper and asked, "What if it’s an innocent civilian?" He said, "There are no innocent civilians. Your presumption should be that anyone within the area of battle, 200, 300, 400 meters from you, is your enemy."
AMY GOODMAN: That was an Israeli Defense Force, IDF, soldier who served during last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza, known as Operation Protective Edge. His testimony is part of a new report just released by the veterans group Breaking the Silence.
For more, we go to Tel Aviv, Israel, where we’re joined by Avner Gvaryahu, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence. He’s a former IDF solder who served from 2004 to ’07 as a sergeant in a special operations unit around Nablus and Jenin.
We welcome you, Avner, to Democracy Now! Talk about the number of people who are speaking out and why you have done this now.
AVNER GVARYAHU: So, hi, Amy. We’re a group, Breaking the Silence, as an organization, a group of former IDF soldiers, and actually some of us are still current IDF soldiers. Throughout the years, we’ve met more than a thousand soldiers. And this time around, this summer, when the summer ended, and we realized—we saw the amount of damage, we realized that something went terribly wrong. And we actually started getting phone calls, emails from soldiers who were themselves in this operation. And then we, ourselves, also started reaching out to people. So we’re talking about, as you said, more than 60 soldiers. A third of them are officers, which is a very high number for us. And we’re talking about people that all served during the summer in different positions, in different units. We’re not talking about soldiers from only one specific place, but throughout the entire Strip in different positions. And I think reading these testimonies, it definitely did this to me and to us in the organization, but I think it’s very, very clear that something went terribly, terribly wrong. And the bare minimum we can do is listen to the same soldiers we sent to fight in our name.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Avner, what penalties are the—in all of these clips, the soldiers are anonymous, their identities are not revealed. What penalties do they face for speaking out? And how did you manage to get so many people to get together to testify in one video?
AVNER GVARYAHU: Well, it’s actually—it’s not an easy task. It’s not trivial to speak out in Israel today. It’s definitely something that is difficult. And I have to say that the soldiers, who are anonymous—and all the testimonies that are given are given to us, you know, one on one, so we know each and every one of the testifiers, but for various reasons we have decided to make sure all our testifiers will be anonymous. But they’re not scared of the penalties. They’re not scared of legal repercussions. They’re actually scared of the reaction of their society and the fact that they will be seen as the scapegoat. And I think one of the points that we’ve always tried to make is that the soldiers coming and speaking out are not the problem. The soldiers coming and speaking out, in my eyes, are maybe a way for solution. They’re really managing to pinpoint or to put a spotlight on the orders they got from up high. And that’s where we’re going to try to push the debate, to a larger public debate about the way we fight our wars, the way we fight in Gaza, and maybe try to make sure next time around will—won’t be that close or maybe won’t happen at all.
AMY GOODMAN: In this clip, a first sergeant describes his commander’s order to randomly fire on a neighborhood in the Gaza Strip during the assault last summer.
IDF FIRST SERGEANT: [translated] So he gave an order: "Guys, park the tanks in a row. Assume position facing the neighborhood of Al-Bureij and prepare for contact." Contact means we all shoot at once, after a countdown—three, two, one, shoot. I remember all the tanks stood in a row, and I personally asked my commander, "Where do we shoot?" He said, "Wherever you like." Later on, I also heard from the other guys that everyone just chose a target. And he said on the radio, "Good morning, Al-Bureij. Guys, we’re going to do a 'Good morning, Al-Bureij.'" This meant waking up the neighborhood to show them that the IDF is here and to deter them. I remember how the tanks stood in a row. So did ours. And I, the gunman, looked at some house, a very tall house, in the center of that neighborhood some 2,000 meters away, which is about two kilometers. And I asked my commander, "Where in the house do I aim?" He said, "Aim a little to the right, a little to the left, at that window, at that floor. Three, two, one, shoot." And we all shot shells sporadically, of course. At no point was anyone shooting at us, though.
AMY GOODMAN: Again, that soldier, his face is blurred, and his voice is disguised. Our guest is Avner Gvaryahu. He’s a first sergeant in the IDF, the person we just heard. So you interviewed, or Breaking the Silence interviewed some, what, 70 officers, soldiers? You have this all on videotape?
AVNER GVARYAHU: So, a little bit less than 70 soldiers, many of them officers, were interviewed. Not all are on video. A small number of them was willing to be filmed on video, because of the things I mentioned earlier. I mean, we’re talking about a real fear, which I can definitely relate to. But still, they found in them the urge and the need to come and speak out.
This specific clip or testimony was really, as you mentioned, from a soldier who served that was a gunner in the Armored Corps. I think the interesting thing about this testimony is that it’s actually not that unique. We hear very similar stories, incidences, from various soldiers in different places. And the stories that keep coming up are the fact that, basically, soldiers were told to, first of all, almost constantly shoot, which is something that is not the procedure. Just in comparison, during the Second Intifada around the year 2000 in the Gaza Strip, in order to shoot—in order for a tanker or for a gunner to shoot a tank shell, he actually needed permission from his battalion officer. We’re talking in this time around, in this round, soldiers that were very, very young soldiers, sometimes enough—as the tank commander gave these orders. So, basically, soldiers were told almost constantly, "Shoot." And this is something, as we just heard, many times in areas that they were not shot at from, many times to areas they had no idea what they were actually shooting at.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Avner, one soldier said his unit tried to shoot all of its machine gun ammunition just before getting resupplied, even if their targets had not been identified. Let’s listen to this one.
IDF SOLDIER: [translated] I remember that one time our post was overlooking a valley, and we decided—we knew we were about to have our ammunition reloaded, so we didn’t really care how much we use up on the way. We felt that we were supposed to waste as much ammo as possible. So we just started firing the machine gun’s entire magazine, which is thousands of bullets’ worth of ammo. And we just kept shooting and shooting, almost nonstop, until the barrel was overheated. When it does, it’s called a "barrel melt." It changes shape, and it’s no longer usable. But we didn’t really care, because we knew that no one would ask questions.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: So, Avner Gvaryahu, what did the soldiers say about the rules of engagement that they were told by their officers to utilize in this conflict?
AVNER GVARYAHU: Well, you know, I think that’s one of the most interesting points: rules of engagement. I mean, as you mentioned, I, myself, was a paratrooper. And I was also a sergeant, a commander of soldiers. And I knew what my rules of engagement were, but they keep them very brief. Basically, one of the things I was taught was, if you have a doubt, then there is no doubt. What does that mean when I was a soldier? What does that mean when I was serving in the West Bank? Basically, think not twice, but at least three or four times, before you shoot, because if there’s a little bit of a doubt, then better you do not make a mistake, and basically, don’t shoot if there’s a doubt.
What we see in the Gaza Strip is basically the army’s attempt to eliminate the idea of doubt. Soldiers were told—and this is really throughout the Strip, throughout the board—soldiers were told that the areas that they’re entering are areas that there are no civilians. Now, the IDF does warn civilians in the areas soldiers were supposed to enter. Pamphlets were dropped from the air, sometimes phone calls. But the moment that those warnings were given, in the mindset of the military, anyone staying in that area turns into someone that is an enemy. Now, the moment after we throw those pamphlets and make a few phone calls, not to each and every one of the houses, the IDF starts bombing artillery shells all over these areas. So soldiers are basically entering an area that they were told—basically, from our perspective, they were lied to—that there are no civilians there.
Now, why am I saying in such certainty they were lied to? Because from our testimonies, we hear over and over again that there were still Palestinians in these neighborhoods. Now, I don’t know why they were there. Some stayed because maybe Hamas members forced them. Maybe that was the case. But in other cases, we know of people that were there because they just couldn’t leave—elderly people, people that were handicapped; people that for reasons we don’t know—maybe they didn’t want to leave their property—stayed. One of the testimonies talks about a soldier entering a house, and there are between 30 and 40 people in it. Right? So when we’re talking about the mindset of a soldier, and the testimony we just heard, soldiers were under the false assumption—the false assumption—that they’re entering an area that no civilians are in.
AMY GOODMAN: In—
AVNER GVARYAHU: And one of the powerful testimonies—yeah?
AMY GOODMAN: I just wanted to play another clip from an IDF soldier describing how they would shoot freely at houses during the assault on Gaza last summer in order to, quote, "make their presence felt."
IDF FIRST SERGEANT: [translated] When we had some time to kill, meaning that we didn’t need to cover for an infantry unit or raid a house, when there was really nothing to do, that from time to time a tank must adopt a position—meaning, to drive up to where we can see the area ahead and "make our presence felt," so to speak—to shoot a shell or fire a machine gun to remind the Gazans that we’re there and that they must behave. There were many times where we sat in that boiling hot tank, sweating bullets, half-asleep and half-bored, and we’d get a sudden radio call: "Tank 1A, assume the position and fire a shell." Tank 1A would then drive up on some ramp that the bulldozer had created. Then we’d look around and think, "Which house do we want to take down? Let’s go with this one." "Can we shoot it?" "Yes." Boom. The person to say yes wasn’t a company commander or a battalion commander, not even an officer. It was a tank commander, a sergeant. So that’s what we’d do to kill time. We would even take turns with our tanks and just drive up there to shoot.
There’s one amusing story that I clearly remember. I drove up on the ramp at around 9:00 a.m. or 10:00 a.m., but I didn’t really want to shoot at a house, because it was my first day, and it still felt wrong. I still had a moral problem with it. So my commander told me, "Go ahead. Shoot. Where do you feel like shooting?" I aimed at—I was the gunman, so I’d aim and shoot. So I aimed at a metal sign with some Arabic writing on it, like "Private farmland, do not enter." And we just shot at that. So we destroyed half of that grove, destroyed his sign and the olive trees, just because we didn’t have anything to do. There was also this time when I drove up, saw a house, decided that it bothered me that it was a purple house. So I asked, "Can I shoot it?" "Sure, go ahead." And boom. There was no supervision. Nobody cared. And that’s that. Those were our rules of engagement during Operation Protective Edge.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s an IDF soldier describing what happened last summer, the Israeli assault on Gaza, his role in it, what is known as Operation Protective Edge. Avner, respond to this. Also, I cut you off when you were talking about another testimony.
AVNER GVARYAHU: Yeah, so, I just wanted to—you know, we have these specific incidences, but one of the things we hear from many, many soldiers is the mindset that they were in. And one of the guys describes it, I think, very well. He says, "After three weeks in the Gaza Strip, that you shoot at everything that moves—and things that don’t move. In a crazy amount of gun power, the good and the bad sort of mix up together, and morality sort of disappears." And then he says, "It sort of becomes like a video game, and it’s like really, really cool and real." The truth of the matter is this is something that, I mean, I can resonate to. I didn’t serve in the Gaza Strip; I served in the West Bank. But these are things that we hear from soldiers throughout, you know, the decade we’ve been gathering testimonies.
I think what happened in the Gaza Strip this time around, because of the unbelievable amount of gunfire, then we really see soldiers using this—you know, this ability really indiscriminately. And I have to say, I don’t think that it was—I think there is a difference between shooting indiscriminately and shooting intentionally. Maybe the outcome is the same, but there is a difference. I mean, there wasn’t an intentional harm to kill innocent Palestinians, but when we talk about the orders they got, when we’re talking about the way we used force in Gaza, that’s where the problem starts, because soldiers were really told there are no innocent civilians. And this is why we hear and see these testimonies.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, in this other testimony, an Israeli soldier described how he was instructed to treat anyone seen looking towards his position as a scout for Hamas or other militant groups to be fired on.
IDF SOLDIER: [translated] But when we spotted someone, we couldn’t tell if he was a lookout or just someone we saw near a window, because he lifted his head or was out smoking a cigarette. And sometimes he’s far away. You can see him two kilometers away through your sights, but he doesn’t even know you’re there, so he doesn’t hide. You just see him near a window, and he could be a lookout, but you never really know. And our orders were: "You see anyone standing near a window, you shoot."
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And this is an Israeli soldier describing his feelings at the end of the assault on Gaza.
IDF FIRST SERGEANT: [translated] My feeling after Operation Protective Edge wasn’t so good. I had also lost a friend there, and some friends were wounded, but I mostly felt bad morally speaking. I felt that we shot at houses just because, without even knowing if anyone’s there. We shot at cars, at ambulances, doing things I was raised not to do—not to kill the innocent, not to shoot at an ambulance. It’s like the Wild West out there, and it was all approved by the commanders. I felt there was something morally rotten in this army if we were authorized to do this, because our first rule is not to kill without reason, and here I was formally told, "Kill anything in your proximity." And I took part in that. I did it, and I regret it. I killed people, most of whom didn’t do anything to me—people standing on rooftops, people driving in cars, people in ambulances, people at home. I don’t even know where their homes are on the map. And we just did it because. "Why not? Let’s fire a shell for fun." It’s a really lousy feeling.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And in this final clip, an IDF soldier describes how a battalion commander tried to raise morale by telling the soldiers in his company that Shejaiya had been completely destroyed.
IDF SOLDIER: [translated] I don’t remember when exactly, but one day the battalion commander gathered the entire battalion. I guess he wanted to give a speech to raise our morale. He knew that many of our friends from the other battalion were in Shejaiya, and so he said, "You don’t need to worry anymore. There is no Shejaiya. Shejaiya is gone," like it was wiped off the face of the map. Those were his exact words: "There is no Shejaiya."
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Avner Gvaryahu, what are you hoping to accomplish with these video testimonies now?
AVNER GVARYAHU: Well, first and foremost, what we want to hope for is to create debate. We want people to know how we’re fighting in Gaza. I think that it’s very clear this is, you know, the third round. Everyone knows there’s going to be another one. So let’s make sure that’s what we can hope for, is that before the next cycle starts, let’s at least know what we’re demanding from our soldiers to do. Now, we’re—of course, we could hope for much more. One of the points that we are calling for is an Israeli investigation, but external to the military. We believe that it’s crucial and possible for our society to look itself in the mirror and ask itself what they’re actually asking their soldier or military to do. And in that matter, it’s—like I said earlier, it’s not about finding a scapegoat. It’s not about a specific commander. It’s about, you know, the picture, the whole picture. And I think it’s definitely about time that we have a real chance to take responsibility and say that we, as a society, cannot accept the fact that this is the way we’re going to continue to live. And I, as an Israeli—I, by the way, see myself as an Israeli patriot. I am not willing to accept the fact that because our enemies act in immoral ways, it’s OK for us to not ask ourselves any questions.
AMY GOODMAN: Avner Gvaryahu, in our next segment we’re going to look at Palestine joining the ICC. Will Breaking the Silence bring these soldiers’ testimonies to the International Criminal Court?
AVNER GVARYAHU: Well, the answer is no. We have never called for or handed information to external courts or, therefore, to Israeli courts. We’re an organization just trying to create awareness. I think—just specifically speaking, I think that there are more relevant places to bring the report. And that’s, of course, to the Israeli eye. I think that what we are trying to do is create this report. But the information is out there. It is public. We actually—last time around, around the Goldstone Report, we did not meet with the committee, but the committee did decide to use our information. So the information is out there, but what we call is what I said earlier, and this is really something that we find very important: an Israeli investigation that’s external to the military. We believe this is possible and crucial to our society.
AMY GOODMAN: Avner Gvaryahu, I want to thank you for being with us, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence, a former IDF soldier who served from 2004 to ’07 as a sergeant in a special operations unit around Nablus and Jenin. This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we go to The Hague, where the International Criminal Court has a new member—Palestine. Stay with us.
Snowden Docs: NSA Technology Lets Gov't Generate Transcripts of Private Phone Calls
A new article by The Intercept details how the National Security Agency is converting people’s private phone conversations into searchable text. According to documents released by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the agency can now automatically recognize spoken words by generating rough transcripts and phonetic representations that are easily stored and combed for information. The top-secret documents show NSA analysts congratulated themselves on developing what they called "Google for Voice" nearly a decade ago. It remains unclear how widely the spy agency uses its speech-to-text capabilities to transcribe and index U.S. citizens’ verbal conversations. The documents suggest the NSA has frequently used the technology to intercept phone calls — particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as Mexico — and to monitor international news. We are joined by Dan Froomkin, staff reporter at The Intercept.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: "The Computers Are Listening." That’s the headline to a new article by The Intercept detailing how the National Security Agency, or NSA, is converting people’s private phone conversations into searchable text. According to documents released by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the agency can now automatically recognize spoken words by generating rough transcripts and phonetic representations that are easily stored and combed for information. The top-secret documents show NSA analysts congratulated themselves on developing what they called "Google for Voice" nearly a decade ago. It remains unclear how widely the spy agency uses its speech-to-text capabilities to transcribe and index U.S. citizens’ verbal conversations. The documents suggest the NSA has frequently used the technology to intercept phone calls, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Mexico, and to monitor international news.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, for more, we go to Washington, D.C., where we’re joined by Dan Froomkin, a staff reporter at The Intercept. His new piece is called "The Computers Are Listening: How the NSA Converts Spoken Words into Searchable Text." He also just wrote an article headlined "Why the USA FREEDOM Act is Both Desperately Important and Laughably Pathetic."
Dan, welcome to Democracy Now! Talk about how voice is turned into text, and the significance of this for the NSA and for the public.
DAN FROOMKIN: Well, I mean, the funny thing is that it’s not at all surprising, when you think about it. I mean, we talk to our apps these days. We dictate into Google searches. So, is it—you know, is it any surprise the NSA can do this and has been able to do this for a while? No. But it has never been disclosed before, and the NSA refuses to talk about it. And so, because they don’t acknowledge that they do it, we can’t have a public policy discussion about what the limits to it should be, what the significance of it is. And the significance is enormous. Voice has historically been considered ephemeral and unsearchable. And, sure, if they—you know, if they had somebody around to listen to it, you might be spied on, if you were making international phone calls or what have you. But now they can listen to everything all at once, thanks to these computers. They can search through for whatever they might be looking for.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And does this extend also to, for instance, Internet phone calls or Skype, as well?
DAN FROOMKIN: From what I can tell, the NSA doesn’t really distinguish between any of these. They just call it voice intercepts. And they seem to be equally adept at pulling voice off of the standard old phone lines, phone circuits that travel across the fiber-optic lines, now packetized, you know, digital voice, so voice over Internet, Skype, whatever, cellphone conversations. Whatever it is, they pull it off, it’s voice intercept, and then—and then, at least theoretically, they could use this on any event.
AMY GOODMAN: Will the USA FREEDOM Act, the surveillance reform bill Congress is talking about, address this, and what you think of that?
DAN FROOMKIN: Well, it doesn’t address this at all. Of course, nothing addresses this, because nobody really knew about it before. But the USA FREEDOM Act, ironically, only touches on the one program, which we know doesn’t involve actual voice content, and therefore doesn’t involve voice recognition. It would just constrain the bulk collection of domestic metadata. I say "just." That’s still a very significant move, but compared to the incredibly vast, sort of metastasizing surveillance state that has come to exist here, it’s really very little.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And for those listening or viewing the show who believe that their voice conversations should be kept private, what remedies are available to folks who don’t want to have their stuff grabbed this way?
DAN FROOMKIN: Well, at the end of the day, the answer is the same that we’ve heard to a lot of the Snowden revelations, and that’s encryption, really solid, unbreakable encryption. And there are—you know, Apple obviously is now doing that with its own iPhones and FaceTime, and you have services like Silent Circle and what have you. So, encryption would be the way to do it.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, media monitoring by the U.S. government, here and abroad?
DAN FROOMKIN: Yeah, that actually struck me as one of the most anodyne uses of it, and actually, you know, perfectly fine, as far as I’m concerned. I’m happy the NSA wants to know what’s going on around the world, you know, collecting open source data. I don’t mind it. I’d like them to collect as much open source data as they can to find out what’s going on. The issue is when they’re looking at stuff that we think is private. So, if they’re translating an Arabic news channel into English and sending it out to their people, what’s wrong with that? You know, more power to them. But if they’re listening in on bedroom talk between the prime minister and his confidant, then that’s not so great—or maybe it is.
AMY GOODMAN: Dan Froomkin, I want to thank you for being with us, staff reporter at The Intercept. We’ll link to your piece, "The Computers Are Listening." And for Democracy Now! viewers and listeners, you can watch and listen to our show online. For the NSA, it’s already transcribed, so you can read the whole thing there.
After Palestine Overcomes U.S.-Israeli Pressure and Joins ICC, Will Gaza's Victims See Justice?
A new report from the Israeli group Breaking the Silence on Israel’s policy of indiscriminate fire during the 2014 Gaza assault comes just a week after a United Nations probe confirmed Israeli forces conducted direct attacks on its facilities in Gaza during last summer’s offensive. The attacks took place despite repeated notifications with the GPS coordinates of U.N. sites to Israeli forces. Palestinians have vowed to bring the findings to the International Criminal Court, which it officially joined last month. We discuss the implications of Palestine’s accession to the ICC with two guests: Ambassador Nabil Abuznaid, head of the Palestinian Mission to the Netherlands, and John Dugard, former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories and emeritus professor of international law at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: The Breaking the Silence report on Israel’s "policy of indiscriminate fire" during the 2014 Gaza assault is being published just a week after a United Nations probe confirmed Israeli forces conducted direct attacks on United Nations facilities in Gaza, killing at least 44 Palestinians sheltering at those sites during last summer’s offensive. The attacks took place despite repeated notifications to Israeli forces of the GPS coordinates of U.N. sites.
AMY GOODMAN: Palestinians have vowed to bring the findings to the International Criminal Court, which it officially joined last month. Last week, while we were at The Hague, I spoke to two guests about the implications of Palestine’s accession to the International Criminal Court. Ambassador Nabil Abuznaid is the head of the Palestinian Mission to the Netherlands. And John Dugard is the former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, now emeritus professor of international law at University of Leiden in the Netherlands. He was born in South Africa. I started by asking Ambassador Abuznaid about the significance of Palestine becoming the newest member of the International Criminal Court.
NABIL ABUZNAID: Well, first, I think the international community should encourage Palestine and congratulate Palestine for joining the international court, because we accepted to live under international law. We are a peace-abiding nation. And we really tried politically to end the occupation. We tried by all means to end it. But, unfortunate, we were forced to seek justice through the international court, which hopefully could stop the Israeli aggressions against our people, against our lands, so we can live free and in dignity in our homeland.
AMY GOODMAN: What kind of pressure did you come under? Israel and the United States were opposed to you making this bid to be a member.
NABIL ABUZNAID: Well, they can oppose as much as they want. They can stop the money from going to the ICC. They can shut a building. But they cannot stop justice. I think justice, in the end, will prevail.
AMY GOODMAN: John Dugard, in terms of international law, what’s the significance of Palestine becoming a member of the International Criminal Court?
JOHN DUGARD: In the first place, it does give credibility to Palestine’s statehood. Palestine is now a fully fledged member of the International Criminal Court. And even those states in the court system that do not recognize Palestine have to accept that it is a state at least for the purposes of the International Criminal Court. The other important factor is that it does now provide an avenue for the pursuit of international criminal justice.
AMY GOODMAN: What, Ambassador, do you want the International Criminal Court to investigate? What is before the court?
NABIL ABUZNAID: Well, I think Palestinians, for more than 60 years, they did not have one day of justice. And what is the daily going under the occupation, it is clearly violations of international law—in moving people from their land, in stopping people from their freedom in movement, in attacks on Gaza and killing thousands of people. I am sure Israel violated every international law in the book in its long occupation in Palestine.
AMY GOODMAN: What is the particular case before the court right now, John Dugard?
JOHN DUGARD: I think there are three major crimes that the court will be required to investigate. First of all, there is the question of settlements. There are today over 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in Palestinian territory, and that is an international crime in terms of the Rome Statute and general international law. So that’s the first crime. The second crime, and probably the most important, concerns the recent Gaza conflict, Operation Protective Edge, where Israel was responsible for killing 2,200 people and failing to distinguish between civilians and combatants. So, that clearly is at least a war crime, probably a crime against humanity, as well. And there’s also the failure of Israel to treat political prisoners as prisoners of war, which I know is an issue that is important to the Palestinian Authority.
AMY GOODMAN: Just to clarify, John Dugard, there’s no particular case that’s been brought up right now with the newest membership of Palestine.
JOHN DUGARD: The prosecutor of the court has decided to conduct a preliminary examination into the issue. And in order to decide whether or not to conduct a full-scale investigation into the allegations of international crimes, she will have to be satisfied, first of all, that an international crime was committed; secondly, that there is no investigation, proper investigation, that is being conducted in the responding state, which in this case will be Israel; and, thirdly, that the crime is sufficiently serious, that it meets what’s called the gravity test.
AMY GOODMAN: Ambassador Abuznaid, are you concerned that Palestinians, Palestinian organizations will be indicted, as well?
NABIL ABUZNAID: Well, when we accepted the Rome Statutes, we are not immune. We will cooperate with the court. If we need to be investigated, we are willing to do that. We accepted to live under international law. And if we are violating international law, we would be responsible for our acts equally. And I hope the Israelis would see the same as we do.
AMY GOODMAN: Speaking to a congressional panel in 2014, U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power said the U.S. will continue to block Palestinian efforts in forums like the United Nations.
SAMANTHA POWER: There are no shortcuts to statehood, and we’ve made that clear. Efforts that attempt to circumvent the peace process, the hard slog of the peace process, are only going to be counterproductive to the peace process itself and to the ultimate objective of securing statehood, the objective that the Palestinian Authority, of course, has. So, we have contested every effort, even prior to the restart of negotiations spearheaded by Secretary Kerry. Every time the Palestinians have sought to make a move on a U.N. agency, a treaty, etc., we have opposed it.
AMY GOODMAN: John Dugard, your response to the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power?
JOHN DUGARD: Well, I think the strategy of Israel and also of the United States is simply to allow talks to go on forever and ever, while Israel annexes more land and takes over Palestinian territory. The purpose of the International Criminal Court, as I see it, is to circumvent this strategy on the part of Israel and the United States and to make Israel and the United States see and face the issues very clearly—namely, that Israel has committed very, very serious international crimes. And I might add that I’m a South African who lived through apartheid. I have no hesitation in saying that Israel’s crimes are infinitely worse than those committed by the apartheid regime of South Africa.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain what you’re saying. You’re the former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights, as well.
JOHN DUGARD: For seven years, I visited the Palestinian territory twice a year. I also conducted a fact-finding mission after the Operation Cast Lead in Gaza in 2008, 2009. So I am familiar with the situation, and I am familiar with the apartheid situation. I was a human rights lawyer in apartheid South Africa. And I, like virtually every South African who visits the occupied territory, has a terrible sense of déjà vu. We’ve seen it all before, except that it is infinitely worse. And what has happened in the West Bank is that the creation of a settlement enterprise has resulted in a situation that closely resembles that of apartheid, in which the settlers are the equivalent of white South Africans. They enjoy superior rights over Palestinians, and they do oppress Palestinians. So, one does have a system of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territory. And I might mention that apartheid is also a crime within the competence of the International Criminal Court.
AMY GOODMAN: You say, John Dugard, that the situation in the Palestinian territories is worse than apartheid. What would an apartheid case brought to the International Criminal Court look like? Again, you were the special rapporteur, the U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, as well as being a South African and an international rights lawyer.
JOHN DUGARD: Well, of course, I think it’s important to stress that the whole international environment has changed since the end of apartheid, because the apartheid regime, fortunately for itself, did not have to face a legal action either before an international criminal court or before a national court, whereas Israel today does face action before an international court. Of course, the crimes are substantially the same: discrimination, repression, targeted assassinations, house demolitions. I think, in one respect, Israel’s crimes are much worse, and that is in respect of its military action against Gaza, where it has not hesitated to kill civilians indiscriminately.
AMY GOODMAN: The U.N. has confirmed that Israeli forces conducted direct attacks on United Nations facilities in Gaza, killing at least 44 Palestinians sheltering at the sites during last summer’s assault, the attacks taking place despite repeated notifications with the GPS coordinates of U.N. sites given to Israeli forces. Ambassador Abuznaid, your response to what the U.N. found? And what does this mean? I mean, Palestinians have been alleging this for quite some time now.
NABIL ABUZNAID: Well, I think this is not just the Palestinians saying it. This is Mr. Ban Ki-moon and the investigation saying that the Israelis killed, deliberately, innocent Palestinian civilians who have taken shelters in some of the U.N. buildings. And this is a violation of international law. But one comment I would like to say, as a Palestinian, regardless to the suffering of the Palestinian people, to our people through, you know, all this century, and now what happened in Syria, even in the Netherlands—we got 15,000 arrived here on boats, hundreds were drowned in the waters—we are not seeking revenge. Only we want justice for our people, who did not see one single day of justice. Hopefully, that justice would prevail soon.
AMY GOODMAN: Israel is not a member of the International Criminal Court.
JOHN DUGARD: No.
AMY GOODMAN: The United States is not a member of the International Criminal Court.
JOHN DUGARD: That is correct.
AMY GOODMAN: So, the significance of this, why they are not members?
JOHN DUGARD: Well the United States has given a number of reasons for failing to become a full member of the International Criminal Court. And one must remember that neither China nor the Russian Federation are members of the International Criminal Court. There are general reasons given by the United States. In the case of Israel, Israel has not become a party, because it has something to hide. It clearly does not wish to see its own military leaders and its political leaders targeted.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you both for being with us. Ambassador Nabil Abuznaid is head of the Palestinian Mission to the Netherlands. John Dugard former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, now a professor emeritus at the University of Leiden here in the Netherlands. We’re broadcasting from The Hague in the Netherlands. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks for joining us.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. When we come back, the NSA can turn your phone conversations into text, then search it? Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: "Everything is Everything" by Lauryn Hill. Lauryn Hill just canceled a concert in Israel, saying she had wanted to do one in both Israel and the Occupied Territories, and the one in the territories just wasn’t being able to happen. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.
NYC Mayor de Blasio Moves to Rein In Soaring Rents with Call for Sweeping New Tenant Protections
Juan González discusses his latest exclusive in the New York Daily News on New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio’s proposal to enact the most sweeping expansion of tenant protections in decades for the city’s one million rent-regulated apartments. One part of the mayor’s plan calls for an end to a law that allows landlords to charge a tenant market rates once a rent-regulated unit passes a monthly threshold of $2,500. Over the past 20 years, more than 250,000 rent-controlled apartments have been deregulated in the city, many in gentrifying neighborhoods.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Juan, you have a very interesting piece in the New York Daily News today about rent in New York. You interviewed Governor—Mayor de Blasio?
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yesterday, it was—yeah, it was yesterday. The mayor gave me an exclusive look at his proposal now to try to save affordable housing in New York City. About a million people in New York—a million apartments in New York City are rent-stabilized, rent regulated by the state, but they’re facing the possibility of the end of rent regulations on June 15th, and the state Legislature must come up with a new plan. The mayor has proposed the most sweeping new expansions of protections in—to the rent laws of New York state in decades, but the Legislature must approve this by June 15th. Luckily, in the last few weeks, the leader of the Senate and the leader of the State Assembly have both been indicted by federal authorities for extortion, getting landlords to pay them money in exchange for their passing pro-landlord legislation. So hopefully the sands are shifting in Albany with these new arrests, and hopefully now the mayor will be able to get his plan through.
AMY GOODMAN: And we’ll link to your piece at democracynow.org.
Democracy Now! has openings for video production fellowships beginning July 1st. Visit democracynow.org for information.
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Houthis Claim Dozens Killed in Saudi Strikes on Northern Yemen
Houthi sources are claiming dozens of civilians have been killed or wounded in Saudi Arabia’s latest strikes on northern Yemen. The Saudi-led coalition says it carried out the attacks after Houthi rebels fired across the border, killing three people. Secretary of State John Kerry is in Saudi Arabia today to discuss a "humanitarian pause" to the more than month-long air campaign. The U.N. has warned Yemen faces the collapse of its basic civilian infrastructure because an internationally backed arms embargo has prevented the delivery of fuel and food.
Amnesty: Syrian Regime Committing "Crime Against Humanity" in Barrel Bombing of Aleppo
Amnesty International is accusing the Syrian regime of "crimes against humanity" in its barrel bomb attacks on the city of Aleppo. A new report says barrel bombs killed some 3,000 civilians last year and more than 11,000 since 2012. Amnesty’s Philip Luther unveiled the findings.
Philip Luther: "Barrel bombs are essentially oil drums with TNT and shrapnel inside. And when civilians hear the hissing sound so characteristic of barrel bomb attacks, they essentially know they’ve got two minutes, two minutes in which they can try and seek refuge. Between January 2014 and March 2015, they’ve recorded 3,000 civilian deaths, while recording at the same time only the deaths of 35 fighters. That’s a 99 percent civilian casualty rate."
The report comes as relentless government attacks have forced one of Aleppo’s main hospitals to shut down. The group Doctors Without Borders says it’s unclear if the al-Sakhour hospital will be able to reopen due to heavy damage.
Obama Admin: Unclear If ISIL Behind Texas Attack; $20M Bounty for Top Leaders
The Obama administration says it’s too soon to determine if the self-proclaimed Islamic State was behind Sunday’s attack on an anti-Islam event in Texas. The two gunmen were shot dead; no one else was killed. On Tuesday, ISIL said the two were "soldiers" of the group, and warned that "future attacks are going to be harsher and worse." But it remains unclear if ISIL played any role beyond inspiring the gunmen with calls for violence. At the White House, Press Secretary Josh Earnest said an investigation continues.
White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest: "This is still under investigation by the FBI and other members of the intelligence community to determine any ties or affiliations that these two individuals may have had with ISIL or other terrorist organizations around the world. So it’s too early to say at this point."
The State Department meanwhile has announced a $20 million bounty for four top ISIL leaders.
Attorney General Lynch Meets with Gray Family, Police in Baltimore
Attorney General Loretta Lynch was in Baltimore Tuesday in her first official visit since taking up the position late last month. Lynch met with the family of Freddie Gray, whose death in police custody sparked a wave of protest and led to the indictment of six officers. Later in the day, Lynch addressed a gathering of police.
Attorney General Loretta Lynch: "I have watched the police of this city, and I know that there are difficulties. I know that we have struggles. And we are here to help you work through those struggles in a way that will hopefully be the best and most productive way for this department. But to all of you who are on the front lines, I just want to say thank you. Really, you are representing all of law enforcement when you are out there. You are allowing peaceful protest. You’re helping people rebuild. You’re helping people clean up. You really have become the face of law enforcement."
In addition to the criminal indictment, the Justice Department is investigating whether Gray’s arrest violated his civil rights.
ACLU: Gov’t Surveillance Planes Monitored Baltimore During Unrest
The American Civil Liberties Union is raising questions about the appearance of government surveillance planes in the skies over Baltimore amid protests over Freddie Gray’s death in police custody. On Thursday, Friday and Saturday night, a Cessna plane registered to "NG Research" flew loops around West Baltimore, where protesters burned cars and a CVS earlier in the week. Another plane with no tail number flew wider loops around the area on Saturday night. An anonymous government official told The Washington Post the flights were aerial support Baltimore police officials requested from the FBI. The planes reportedly use infrared technology to monitor people’s movements.
AZ Judge Rules Undocumented Students Eligible for In-State Tuition
An Arizona judge has ruled undocumented students granted a reprieve from deportation are eligible for in-state college tuition. Tuesday’s decision by Superior Court Judge Arthur Anderson says immigrants with deferred status are considered lawfully present in the U.S. and are not barred from receiving public benefits. The ruling applies to undocumented youths known as "DREAMers," who received status under President Obama’s DACA program.
Clinton Prepared to Go "Further" than Obama Exec Orders on Immigration
On the campaign trail, Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton has said she will go "even further" than President Obama has in his executive actions on immigration, if Republicans keep blocking comprehensive reform. Clinton spoke Tuesday to a crowd of high school students in Nevada.
Hillary Clinton: "I will fight for comprehensive immigration reform and a path to citizenship for you and for your families across our country. I will fight to stop partisan attacks on the executive actions that would put DREAMers, including those with us today, at risk of deportation. And if Congress continues to refuse to act, as president, I would do everything possible under the law to go even further."
Huckabee Enters GOP Presidential Field for 2016
On the Republican side, former Arkansas governor and Fox News host Mike Huckabee has announced his bid for the presidency. In his kickoff address, Huckabee invoked an anti-abortion and anti-LGBT message.
Mike Huckabee: "But we’ve lost our way morally. We’ve witnessed the slaughter of over 55 million babies in the name of choice, and we are now threatening the foundation of religious liberty by criminalizing Christianity and demanding that we abandon biblical principles of natural marriage. Many of our politicians — many of our politicians have surrendered to the false god of judicial supremacy, which would allow black-robed and unelected judges the power to make law as well as enforce it."
U.S. to Resume Diplomatic Presence in Somalia After 20+ Years
The U.S. has announced it will resume a diplomatic presence in Somalia after more than 20 years. Secretary of State John Kerry issued a video statement to coincide with his surprise visit to the country on Tuesday.
Secretary of State John Kerry: "The world cannot afford to have places on the map that are essentially ungoverned. That is why Somalia’s return to effective government is an historic opportunity. In recognition of the progress made and the promise to come, I am pleased to announce that the United States will begin the process of establishing the premises for a diplomatic mission in Mogadishu."
Kerry’s visit was confined to the perimeter of the Mogadishu airport, where he met with top officials for about three hours.
U.S. Approves 1st Ferry Service to Cuba in More than 50 Years
The Obama administration has approved a U.S.-based ferry service to Cuba, the first in more than a half-century. Four Florida companies have been granted licenses to carry passengers and cargo to Cuba after the Treasury Department lifted a ban on Tuesday. The move follows last month’s historic meeting between President Obama and Cuban President Raúl Castro at a regional summit in Panama.
PEN Honors Charlie Hebdo Amid Protest from Dozens of Writers
The French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo has been awarded the Freedom of Expression Courage Award at the PEN American Center gala in New York City. The newspaper was honored months after the massacre at the paper’s offices in Paris, which the gunmen called revenge for cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. Charlie Hebdo editor Gérard Biard accepted the award to a standing ovation.
Gérard Biard: "I perfectly understand that a believer can be shocked by a satirical cartoon about Muhammad, Jesus, Moses or even the pope. But growing up to be a citizen is to learn that some ideas, some words, some images can be shocking. Being shocked is a part of democratic debate. Being shot is not."
The award to Charlie Hebdo sparked a major controversy among PEN members. Several prominent writers, including Michael Ondaatje, Teju Cole, and Rachel Kushner, pulled out of the gala in opposition to what they called Charlie Hebdo’s targeting of Muslims and other persecuted communities. Those writers and some 200 other PEN members also signed a letter of protest. Calling the massacre "sickening and tragic," the letter says: "PEN is not simply conveying support for freedom of expression but also valorizing selectively offensive material: material that intensifies the anti-Islamic, anti-Arab sentiments already prevalent in the Western world." In response, Biard, the Charlie Hebdo editor, said: "We have always been anti-racist, and we fight against all discrimination."
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